Episode 12: P.O.E. with Will Anglin and Rowland Chen

In Episode 12 we sit down for a ridiculously fun conversation with coaches and elite boulderers Will Anglin and Rowland Chen.  We dig into their concept of P.O.E., which is something I've worked with since forever, but never had a cool name for.  Taking this conversation to heart could potentially change your climbing, and may very well be the key to taking it to the next level.  

You can find Will via Tension Climbing at www.tensionclimbing.com

Ladies, Rowland is single and awaiting your messages on his FB profile.

Enough reading... go listen!  

Like what you hear?  Subscribe to The Power Company Podcast on ITunes, Google Play, or Stitcher Radio, and leave a rating and review!

FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Kris Hampton  00:15

What's up everybody? I'm your host, Kris Hampton. Welcome to Episode 12 of the Power Company Podcast. We've got 12 episodes, and it's not even been a year. In fact, we're like, we're still two months shy of a year. So I'd say we're doing pretty damn well. On the road, I am headed to Red River Gorge. Next where I will be emceeing Rocktoberfest. It's one of my favorite events of the year just because it's home. And those are my people. And I get to see everybody, and I love it there. I just wrapped up 24 Hours a Horseshoe Hell emceeing that event. And, you know, no offense to any other events in the climbing world. But they're down in Arkansas at Horseshoe Canyon Ranch, they definitely have the craziest after party of all. So if you have a chance to go, you should go and don't skip the after party. Anyway, moving on, I want to give a big shout out to you guys, for all your support of the board meetings podcast that Nate and I just recently put out, I got lots of great feedback, lots of good comments. And we definitely intend to keep that thing going. I've got several more already recorded and ready to go. So we'll keep those going in between episodes for as long as possible. And speaking of support, check us out on patreon.com. That's patreon.com/powercompanypodcast. And what that site is, is basically a way for you to support us, and you know, help us get this thing out, help us keep it sponsoring commercial free. And help us keep the episodes coming, you know, the more you support, and the more you want it the more we're gonna do it. We love doing this thing. So we'll keep it going. If that's what you guys want, check us out on there. patreon.com/powercompanypodcast, or you can click the podcast link at powercompanyclimbing.com. And you can you can give $1, you can give $5. Every little bit helps, and we appreciate it. Let's move on. Let's get this. Let's get this thing rolling today. I've got a great, great conversation. Probably the most fun conversation I've had to be honest with Will Anglin and Roland Chen, who are both coaches out at Earth Treks Golden,Colorado. And Will's got a great blog, if you haven't seen it, I believe it's willanglin.squarespace.com. Definitely look him up. If you just, you know, punch Will Anglin into your Googler you will definitely find him. And he's also one of the owners over at Tension Climbing where they make really great wooden holds. And he and Ben Spanuth both bring some great things to the table and are putting out really high quality training tools. So definitely check them out at Tension. And actually I need to talk to will about trading a Power Company tee for a Tension tee because I really liked their tees'. Anyway, alright, let's get into this thing. Have fun.

Will Anglin  03:32

Holds are not something that you just grab and hold on. It's about moving around. It's about linking position, position.

Kris Hampton  04:00

All right, so we're not even gonna tell them what that means yet. So, okay, what I want to start with is we'll start explaining to me POE and exactly how you came about it. So let's start there. Like you two have radically different styles. Tell me about that. 

Rowland Chen  04:23

Yeah. So it was like, he's, like, tall and lanky and not very strong. He's pretty weak. Um, but he's really good at understanding movement and making it happen all the time. Whereas I am really bad at understanding movement. 

Will Anglin  04:42

But he's really strong.

Rowland Chen  04:43

But i'm really strong. Yeah.

Kris Hampton  04:45

Yeah.

Rowland Chen  04:46

 So it's been it's been a learning process for me for sure. Like, like two years ago not to keep my feet on.

Kris Hampton  04:52

Well, let's let's, let's talk about how strong you are first.

Rowland Chen  04:56

 Let's do it. I'm really strong.

Kris Hampton  04:58

Because I know you want to talk about that. Sure. How tall are you? First off about five, eight. And you can touch the rim.

Rowland Chen  05:05

 I can hit rim. Right? So, so there's that.

Kris Hampton  05:08

Yeah, I can wave at the net. That's about as far as. And Will said you have this propensity for, for explosive movement, like you're just...

Rowland Chen  05:19

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  05:19

You're just good at it throwing things around and it being dynamic. 

Will Anglin  05:24

It's nuts.

Kris Hampton  05:24

Yeah, it's like, I was a gymnast. When I was younger, I just really like moving fast and like catching things. Yeah. Like little jumps where you have to like, this can be really visual, sorry, but you have to like jump into a small position and hold like a gnarly swing. That's like my favorite thing ever. Like jumping from really down low into like, double gastones and going like full horizontal. That's like the best.

Will Anglin  05:48

But that sounds so heinous to me.

Rowland Chen  05:50

Whereas WilL can like, keeps his feet on until it's too far away. And I can't do that. You know, he can like, like, go tip to tip like, toe to toe to finger.

Kris Hampton  06:01

Right.

Rowland Chen  06:02

 I can't do that.

Kris Hampton  06:03

 Yeah, you just jump and leave your feet.

Rowland Chen  06:04

 I just jump. Yeah, exactly. But then Will doesn't understand at all, what happens when like you leave the wall? As soon as his points are off the wall? Like he doesn't understand how to move around.

Will Anglin  06:05

Yeah, like,

Rowland Chen  06:12

I understand, like the spatial and stuff more than he does, I guess.

Kris Hampton  06:17

So if you're in the gym, and you're lifting or campusing or whatever. Rowland, you're generally the stronger dude. 

Rowland Chen  06:29

Yeah, almost 100% of the time, and...

Will Anglin  06:31

By a really large margin.

Kris Hampton  06:36

And then if you go outside, that flips, and Will becomes the better climber.

Rowland Chen  06:41

Yes, which is frustrating.

Kris Hampton  06:44

So let's, let's just lay it out a little bit. When you do go outside, and you're climbing. What what are the grades, roughly just a rough estimate of what you generally can climb outside?

Rowland Chen  06:59

In a day, it's anywhere from like, 10 to 12. But if I'm projecting, it's like 13 for boulders, okay, for sport routes. I haven't done it many recently. But it's like, I can I can probably put down like mid 14 in a couple of sessions.

Kris Hampton  07:12

Okay. And your grades Will are about were? Pretty similar. So I can... Do you just get it done faster? Do you...Where does the when you go outside the rolls flip and you're the better climber?

Will Anglin  07:29

So I generally do the harder stuff. I don't want to say I do the hardest stuff faster. It really depends on style. Like there'll be a 9 and Rowland will do it in two tries. And it'll take me 15. And then there'll be and then and that's generally like a jumpy, yeah, like jumping to a crimp.

Kris Hampton  07:50

 Right.

Will Anglin  07:51

The most recent example. And then. So he'll do that faster. But there's a lot less of that. Sorry.

Kris Hampton  08:01

It's all good, do it,

Will Anglin  08:02

There's a lot less of that pure dynamic, just obliterating the rock kind of movement outside. And if there is it's generally not the whole boulder problem, there's always some sort of other aspect to your climbing that you have to have in order to actually top the boulder out or finish the route.

Kris Hampton  08:22

Some sort of finesse you have to use.

Will Anglin  08:23

Yeah, and whatever it is, and I typically excel more at those things. And so the like those kind of boulders I'll do a lot more quickly. Like the, like the Exfoliator. Yeah,  or Evil Backwards or Evil Backwards. Those kind of things. Like, I tried the Exfoliator like a couple times at the end of a session with, you know, tape on most of my fingers and everything. And then was like, Man, it's kind of hard to like, I think I can do it. And then came back and did it in like, a couple tries. One evening, and it's how many times have you tried that first move?

Rowland Chen  09:10

Oh, my God, so many, so many. I can't even touch it.

Will Anglin  09:13

But what the rest of the boulder is totally fine.  but yeah, like the part of the part of the boulder where you just like crush the holds like you just...

Rowland Chen  09:18

 No big deal.

Will Anglin  09:19

...hikes like no big deal. But the first move requires like very precise foot and core tension. And all of these things have to go right at the same time. And then you stick the move and it's not that it's actually not that hard when everything happens at the right time. And I guess that's probably what I would describe my style as is trying to make things happen at the right time. I can do that pretty well. Have a lot of things come together for like one move or one sequence of moves but when it's pure, simple like grab this bad hold and rip it to this bad hold, I'm pretty vulnerable to just not being able to do it. Because I'm not strong enough.

Kris Hampton  10:08

Yeah, I often, I often describe climbing movement, even a single move as like a flipbook there there's a bunch of different things that have to go on at what you know, to all line up to make the move happen correctly. And I'm actually just about to put out on Instagram, an actual flipbook that took me for fucking ever. You have no idea how hard it is to make a flipbook. But at any rate, that's how I think of climbing move. So it sounds like that's what you're good at will, is connecting all those pages on the flip books, and roll and you're good at skipping the middle pages and just jumping from the beginning to the end.

Rowland Chen  10:47

Exactly like we've talked about this a couple times before. And it's like, If more than one thing has to happen at once, I can't do it. But if it's one thing that has to happen is really hard. Like, no big deal. Like I can do that. 

Will Anglin  10:58

And that's really frustrating for me.

Kris Hampton  11:01

I'm sure. And did that I know, a couple of years ago, you really worked on like, you dove into the minutiae of jumping, and being more dynamic was rolling kind of the thing that led you into that?

Will Anglin  11:16

 110%. Yeah.

Rowland Chen  11:17

All of it.

Will Anglin  11:18

I we, cuz we session on the blackboard at Earth tracks, and golden, like, all the time, that's like our main thing, right? And very quickly, it was like, yo, you suck at jumping. Like you're so bad at it how you got this far? Like looking like that when you jump? Like, that's insane. And that's pretty verbatim like, what he's he was like, You suck like, you need to deal with that, because it's not okay. And it has taken me..

Rowland Chen  11:53

So long.

Will Anglin  11:55

...a long time. And it's just so much effort. No, and I'm still not very good at it. Like I can I can do it enough to where like when I have to I could generally like squeak it out. 

Kris Hampton  12:10

But it's not your go to style?

Will Anglin  12:12

I mean, while while y'all were warming up and we were there's like a V9 one move just dyno on the backside of the Exfoliator boulder. Rowland did it in like two tries.  Yeah, something real fast., ...like really fast when when he did it.  And he's taller, it's a jump like it's far. And like, I probably tried it 5 or 10 times before I even hit the lip. And then I like covered the lip and did it. So just terribly. Like I hit it, I swung all the way out. I like kicked him and almost kicked him off the top of the other boulder. Like, it was catastrophic. We were like, alright, we're like, I have to come back for this. But like, I will go back and I will do that boulder.

Rowland Chen  12:26

Cause it's one move.

Kris Hampton  12:54

Yeah, and I think that's important is, you know, one thing I really love about climbing is that there are different styles that work for the exact same thing. Yeah, you know, so you Will you can do it in your more controlled style. And Rowland is going to find his way to jump through it or whatever. And most of the time, but occasionally you're going to run up against that point where you need the other style, you need to be proficient. 

Rowland Chen  13:18

Yes.

Kris Hampton  13:19

 And that's kind of what we're talking about here today. Right? 

Rowland Chen  13:22

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  13:22

So let's get back into POE and how did you... when you realize you had different styles. You're trying to basically teach each other the opposing style right? 

Rowland Chen  13:36

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  13:37

What did you come across that led you to POE? It's all about the position. Position over everything. Which is what POE stands for. Right?

13:48

Yeah. P O E.

Rowland Chen  13:50

There's a gang sign.for it.

Kris Hampton  13:51

There's a gang sign for this. The Earth Trek kids know the gang sign.

Rowland Chen  13:55

Yeah.

Will Anglin  13:58

It so it we found that it had it kind of became a common thread in both of our deficiencies as climbers. And also we started to pick it out basically and in everything and it started to drive us a little bit insane.

Kris Hampton  14:16

 And we can see that. 

Will Anglin  14:17

Yeah, and now and here we are. 

Rowland Chen  14:19

Yeah.

Will Anglin  14:22

 So yeah, for for me, I guess I'll describe it in the way that it applied to me learning how to jump and you can do it in the way that you're still learning how to...

Rowland Chen  14:33

Still learning how to do it.

Will Anglin  14:36

So my...

Kris Hampton  14:38

 In the way that you still suck at using your feet.

Will Anglin  14:42

Yeah. So for I guess for one, I am not very explosive. I'm not powerful at all. I can get to a point where like, I have like some semblance of power, where it's like, oh, maybe you're powerful, but it took me a ridiculous amount of work just to get a little bit right So even just jumping, like not even catching it, like just the simple act of like straightening my legs quickly, in order to propel myself in a direction. Like, that's really difficult for me to do.

Rowland Chen  15:22

So like, you know, when you're jumping in you like your legs are bent and they're straight, like that whole thing.

Will Anglin  15:26

Yes.

Kris Hampton  15:28

Like, try jumping without straightening your legs. And that's really look like when you're trying to throw to something?

Will Anglin  15:33

Yeah. And then and then make it worse because it's really bad. It's like flail-ee. And but, yeah, just so just jumping. First of all, I had to figure out how to do that. And a lot of that involved, positioning my hips in the right place, so that when I did straighten my legs as hard as I could, which still is not very hard, I would actually start going in the right direction.

Kris Hampton  15:56

Right.

Will Anglin  15:57

That that was the first thing. And then once I started getting to the hold is like, well, you're still not sticking them. You're touching them. But no one cares about that. Like, if you're not, if you're not doing it then...

Kris Hampton  16:13

Right. 

Will Anglin  16:13

It's pointless. So what I started to realize is I would jump, well, I use that term loosely. And like just barely snag some thing with like, totally straight arm, my whole body straight, my leg is straight. I'm just like this huge, awkward spindly pendulum and just go whipping off the wall. And like, no one's gonna hold anything like that.

Kris Hampton  16:39

Right.

Will Anglin  16:39

Like, we would do days where it'd be like, let's feel really, let's have Will feel really bad about himself. And we would do jumps to one handed jugs and Rowland with just smash them all. And I'd fall off every single one. Like, I can't even jump and grab a jug one handed, it's insane.

Kris Hampton  16:55

Would it be would every time be that you were catching it? And then swinging off? 

Rowland Chen  17:00

Yep

Will Anglin  17:00

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  17:00

 Okay.

Will Anglin  17:01

Yeah, it was like, and I knew I was doing it. And that made it even worse. And so it I mean, it took a lot of focus, it took a lot of berating from Rowland, which I appreciate.

Rowland Chen  17:14

I gotch you.

Will Anglin  17:15

 You my dog and everything. But it became more about the position I was jumping into, like occupying a certain point in space, right with, you know, bent elbows like engaged shoulders. And so that when I caught the hold, I was there, I was set into that position, position your body at the end, yeah. Not jumping and just trying to get desperately my hand on the hold, and then deal with the fallout afterwards. But actually jump move my body into a position where I can actually interact helpfully with the hold that I'm going to, rather than just like being like, I just have to get my hands on it. Because that's not good enough. You can't just get your hands on it. Like, like, yeah, like, oh, my goodness.

Rowland Chen  18:08

Because when you're climbing, you're not just grabbing holds. 

Kris Hampton  18:10

Right.

Rowland Chen  18:11

Like, there's a million other things that happen.

Will Anglin  18:13

If I a nickel for every hold, I'll touch but could never do.

Kris Hampton  18:18

Yeah, you know, when Chris Sharma first kind of burst onto the scene, I'm old enough to remember that. And...

Rowland Chen  18:23

You old.

Kris Hampton  18:23

Yeah, i'm old. There was a lot of shit being talked from all these old schoolers about, he doesn't know how to climb, you know, he just jumps around. But I remember an article breaking down, Sharma has a new technique, you know, and he would, he would drop a foot back when he was doing these big jumps, drop a foot off the wall. So his body became more vertical, instead of like, hugging the wall when he jumped. So he would end up not swinging at all at the end of these throws. You know, and that's when it first occurred to me that that, that jumpy, powerful style, you know, had real merit and was a real technique that, yeah, if you can position your body before you leave, before you leave the hold, and, you know, turn up at the next hold or land at the next hold in the correct position, then that's when the move happens. 

Rowland Chen  18:24

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  18:31

It's not just a launch yourself there and be strong. You know, that's not all it is. So it's not that Rowland is just strong. It's just that he understood a different type of position than you understood. 

Rowland Chen  19:37

Yeah, like, right. I'm just way better at jumping between holds than Will is. 

Kris Hampton  19:40

Right.

Rowland Chen  19:41

For like a lot of reasons.

Will Anglin  19:42

I mean, even like being in gymnastics, and like learning how to control your body in the air. That's something I never had any any...

Kris Hampton  19:50

Aerial awareness you learned in gymnastics.

Will Anglin  19:53

 Anything I did before climbing involved like, feet planted on the ground, like I wrestled. I played soccer and other nonsense sports like that. 

Kris Hampton  20:07

Nonsense sports like that.

Will Anglin  20:09

Yeah, exactly. Man, if you've seen pictures of me like jumping like cliff jumping like into the water, it's, it's disgusting.

Kris Hampton  20:21

Like you're falling to your death.

Will Anglin  20:23

Yeah, like I just don't i don't have a good awareness of like once I'm not connected to something like if I can have like a point on the rock. Awesome if I got two for sure. Like, all everything makes sense. But as soon as I no longer like touching the rock with any control, right, being able to manipulate my body while I'm in the air or anticipate how I'm going to have to do it prior to actually like disconnecting from the rock that takes I can do it, but it takes so many more tries and like so much effort and so much attention just to like, barely do it right? It does not come natural at all. We're for Rowland, I think he's totally at home, in the air. Like, I mean, the crazy like dynos and stuff that he comes up with them, like I just that would take me a week to do what you just did first try.

Kris Hampton  20:46

Right? So jumping is not just like anybody can jump, anybody can throw themselves into the air, it might look ridiculous, but they can throw themselves into the air. So there's a lot more to it than just just being strong, just leaping, you know. So rolling when you were, you know, when Will's trying to belittle you since you've been belittling him so much, and and coach you into learning this newer style for you. What what are you learning what's going through your head?

Rowland Chen  22:02

I'm learning so much, just from like, especially when we started to because I couldn't keep my feet on, like, like two or three years ago. And then we will like do a tension move on the blackboard or like 55 or whatever. And then I try it and I just go, bam, my feet would just pop off, hit the ground and be like, you'll just keep your feet on. 

Will Anglin  22:20

Violently.

Rowland Chen  22:21

Yeah. And I like I didn't understand at all what that meant. We had to like, break it down. It's there's like so much that happens. Because it's like you have to keep your core tight, which I didn't know about until I had to get my feet on. 

Kris Hampton  22:34

Right, you just generate the momentum...

Rowland Chen  22:36

Yeah. And then I was just like and...

Kris Hampton  22:37

... then like tighten when you catch.

Rowland Chen  22:38

get close enough to like keep my foot on or whatever. And like when you catch hold, it's like, it's the opposite of when you jump when you try to keep feeling because your leg has to be bent. So you have a strong way to pull in with your arms straight when you catch so you can stay like over the foot. And I didn't know that until like a couple of weeks ago. Specifically on on Shu Hari on Crested Butte because the crux is like it's like a hypertension move off of like a smear spot between like bad pinches. Yeah. And it's insane. Like, like I could, I could reach everything, like really comfortably. But the way I was trying it until like, last time I was on it. I was going up and I was trying to straighten my leg and catch the pinch with a bent arm like you do when you try to jump around. Yeah, like...

Kris Hampton  22:43

Exactly.

Rowland Chen  23:12

Like your upper body is perfect position your lower body just like fuck it and it goes wherever. 

Kris Hampton  23:28

Yeah.

Rowland Chen  23:29

Yeah, but but I finally realized that you had to like, basically sit on the foothold. And then just move your hand.

Kris Hampton  23:37

 You have to be really, really good with pulling with your feet.

Rowland Chen  23:40

 Exactly. 

Kris Hampton  23:40

Manipulating your body with your feet.

Rowland Chen  23:42

 Yep, and like keeping your hips in keeping your core tight. And then once you hit the whole, like the moves not over still, which is really similar to jumping. Because you have to like press the foot into the wall, position yourself under the hold. And then like keep your core tight and basically do a front lever on this mirror.

Will Anglin  23:55

And if you push too hard...

Rowland Chen  23:57

Then you pop off the foot.

Will Anglin  23:58

 You don't push hard enough...

Kris Hampton  23:58

You're gonna pop off.

Rowland Chen  24:00

Then you slip. If you pull to hard on the pinch, you pull your foot off the hold, like there's so much that has to happen. When I was able to stick it like one time. Yeah, it was insane.

Kris Hampton  24:10

Yeah, well, we were up in, you know, you guys were there up in Lincoln Lake today. And it was my first time bouldering on granite, really other than, you know, Vedauwoo cracks and Yosemite like 15 20 years ago or something. But I was really paying attention to you know, bouldering with Nate, he's, he's really good at pulling with his feet. And really good at trusting those little glassy feet.

Will Anglin  24:36

We saw that.  So...It was awesome

Kris Hampton  24:38

I really tried to pay a lot of attention to that. Because being a Red River sport climber, most of my, you know, recent climbing career I generally move with like this weird abbreviated momentum and just catch hold, you know.

Will Anglin  24:55

Cuz you can just glom your feet into whatever.

Kris Hampton  24:58

Right, exactly. So, um, I watch his tension and try to mimic that. And I'm rarely successful at it. But, but it's cool to see that there are different styles that work. And to see that there are guys who are super strong, who are also learning...

Rowland Chen  25:14

Who just don't get it. 

Kris Hampton  25:16

Yeah, yeah. So when you're teaching these things to your kids, how do you how do you break it down to them this POE?

Rowland Chen  25:24

I guess the same way more or less actually.

Will Anglin  25:26

Yeah, I mean, we try and be blunt, but caring. And it's for them, I guess the way that we go about it, or try to start to guide them into it is talking about holds are not something that you just grab and pull on. It's about moving around, holds, it's about linking position to position. And if you're in the right position, you'll be able to hold the hold. But if you're have your hand on the hold, and you're not in the right position, it's going to feel terrible, it's going to feel really hard. And when you come to me, and you've tried a boulder problem two or three times, and you're like, I can't do it, like, No, no, no, no, that's not even close. Like it takes, and it's especially like when you're learning something, and we are both very familiar with that, because we're smack in the middle of it, it takes a lot of attempts, it takes a lot of attention. And you just have to try it a lot of times, and you know it when you feel it, I think people understand that inherently like don't try and move 5 10 15 times like this is insane. And each time like after every couple attempts, you're like, you know, maybe try this, turn the direction that your heel is point your knee the opposite direction, I get that a ton.

Kris Hampton  26:59

Right.

Will Anglin  26:59

People are backstepping stuff that they should be squared up to or vice versa, and lean into the whole, like, if your hips are straight out from the wall, or your knees are pointing straight into the wall and you bend your leg where your hips going to go straight back. That's not great. And so trying to get them to think about moves as positions to be in rather than, oh, that crimps really hard to hold, or I'm bad at slopers. But like you're not bad at slopers, you're really strong, like you're really good at, you're good at all of these holes. It's not the whole that's the issue. It's not the wall angle, that's the issue. It's this more global thing that is important in any type of climbing. You know, regardless of discipline, regardless of hold type, regardless of angle or anything rock type, it doesn't matter. You just have to be in the right positions. And when you are, things tend to go your way. And when you're not. They do not go your way.

Kris Hampton  28:01

Yeah, you know, I think everybody I think everybody experiences that, like you see it or hear it in the gym so much with people going, Oh, something just happened. They're like,

Rowland Chen  28:12

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  28:12

Ror some reason that just worked. 

Will Anglin  28:13

Yeah, what was that?

Rowland Chen  28:14

My new favorite thing to say? Because I like to say, like, once or twice in a season to kid is like, Did you feel that? Like, do something and be like, oh, it'd be like, right? 

Kris Hampton  28:25

Yeah for sure.

Rowland Chen  28:26

Like you get it.

Kris Hampton  28:29

And if you're in if you're paying attention beforehand, you know, if you're really trying to figure it out, you're gonna know what that small change was, or at least have an idea and be able to maybe recreate it or get closer to recreating it.

Will Anglin  28:42

 You can start narrowing down.

Kris Hampton  28:44

 Exactly. And I think that's really important to go into it. Paying attention to the body positions, instead of just saying, the go to always seems to be, I just need to pull harder, you know, or I just need to try harder, or I just need to 

Will Anglin  28:59

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  28:59

You know, whatever. But it always comes down to muscle and strength. Yeah, it seems to be the go to.

Rowland Chen  29:05

People always want like the the easy way out. Right? 

Kris Hampton  29:08

Yep.

Rowland Chen  29:08

 And the the easy way out. It's usually like, I could just be stronger. But it's like, no, yeah, you could do that right now.

Kris Hampton  29:16

Yeah, you have to get better.  Yeah. I had soemthing smart to say, but I totally forgot.

Will Anglin  29:23

Yeah, I think that like kind of like exactly what you're talking about. That thought process of not failed, like don't fail on a move. And the first thing is, you're like, Oh, well, my fingers aren't strong enough. I'm gonna hang on board more. Or you couldn't squeeze those two holds together hard enough. You're like, Oh, my like arms or my chest or whatever it is. It's so easy to not do something and then immediately be like, oh, like, if I could just one arm that like, of course I would do it. Yeah, sure. But that's not the answer and having people think about what they're doing and pay attention to what they're doing. Like when you fall off, like try and figure out why you fell off, if you fall off and you're not trying to figure out why you fell off, that was a completely wasted attempt.

Kris Hampton  30:09

 Yeah, and don't go to the like, you know, like Rowald just said, people want the easy way out, don't just go to the first easy answer. You know, like, like, Nate and I were talking on the way down from Lincoln Lake today, about we're working on a core E book for core training for climbing that, that kind of goes into how to activate and use your core, effectively instead of just doing ab exercises, you know, yeah, because I hear all the time in the gym when people's feet pop off them saying, you know, I need to do more core workouts. No, and that's not the case. Yeah, learn how to use your core better.

Will Anglin  30:45

 Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  30:46

Just like you were just saying Rowland. 

Rowland Chen  30:48

Yeah, exactly. So it's like the same thing. I just went through, like, maybe six to nine months ago. I didn't know like, what proper plank form was. Right? Like, my core has always been strong, but just like as happenstance not because I was doing good planks. Like I didn't know that you had to like pull your ribs in and like get your hips close, too close, like your nipples, basically. Right? And as soon as I did that, I was like, Oh, I get it. And then like, it was like a big breakthrough. Like I keep my feet on way, way different than I could do front levers all of a sudden.

Kris Hampton  31:19

Yeah. And you were a gymnast. So... Yeah, I was a gymnast. Like having a hollow body. Something you were already familiar with you you hadn't transferred that over to climbing?

Rowland Chen  31:27

Yeah, exactly. Or like I just had never known how to do and I got by on other stuff, right?

Kris Hampton  31:31

Cuz you're strong. 

Rowland Chen  31:32

Yeah, exactly. Cuz I'm so strong.  Yeah and just abdorable and just so cute. He's the cute one And super single. 

Will Anglin  31:41

Just throwing it out there.

Kris Hampton  31:42

He likes long walks on the beach.

Rowland Chen  31:45

Coffee and rap.

Kris Hampton  31:49

I'm sold.

Rowland Chen  31:50

I'm basically perfect. I remember I was gonna say earlier to Okay, do it. Um, I think people want the easy way out a lot of time. But a lot of the time they also want somebody else to do it for them.

Kris Hampton  32:01

For sure. 

Rowland Chen  32:02

Like a lot of people aren't willing to put in the time I speak people just generally like I spent a lot of time in the gym and hear a lot. Yeah, just complaints. Yep. But a lot of times people like want an answer right away. And like with with climbing, especially, it's such a it's such like an in your head thing that nobody can tell you how to do it. All they can do is like, like, explain how they felt when they did it. Give you like some pointers. But like when it comes down to it like it's all? on you. 

Will Anglin  32:28

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  32:28

Yeah.

Rowland Chen  32:28

 And nobody, nobody can be like, Oh, you just do this. And then you just do it. Like there's there's so much more that has to happen, like in your head to make a movement like go down. 

Will Anglin  32:35

We get that all the time with the kids specifically, because their kids. 

Rowland Chen  32:42

I mean, we're there to help them.

Will Anglin  32:43

 Yeah. 

Rowland Chen  32:44

We're like the dudes with the answers.

Will Anglin  32:46

 But they're they're always like, are we had one kid in particular who would just break down who's really young and be like, why won't you just tell me the answer, right? Why would you just tell me what to doso that I can do it. 

Kris Hampton  32:59

Yeah.

Will Anglin  32:59

I'm like, No, it's not. I can't there's no, there's no word. There's no phrase, there's nothing I can say right now that you'll just be like, oh, and then do it.

Rowland Chen  33:09

Yeah.

Will Anglin  33:10

 It's like, I can help nudge you towards, like in the direction I think you should go based on like, what I've done, and you know, my experience of watching you climb and stuff, but it really comes down to you like, are you paying attention to what you're doing? Are you trying hard? Are you trying as hard as you can or as hard as you want to try? Or as hard as you feel like you should have to try.

Rowland Chen  33:32

Or in the right way? 

Will Anglin  33:33

Yeah, or like it. It's it's so much more complex than that. And I think the more important thing is not for you to do the move. But to figure out how to figure out how to do the move, like what what is the thought process? What do you have to notice? How can you get yourself to figure out what you're not doing and what you need to do and how you need to do it?

Kris Hampton  33:57

Yeah, Steve Bechtel, who I've talked to a lot loves to talk about the investment of training, meaning your It's like putting money in the bank, you know, it's not, it's not something that's readily available, right now. You're, you're gonna cash that in later, and you're gonna you're gonna reap the benefits later. And I think what people want is this immediate transaction, like put money on the table, give me the product.

Will Anglin  34:21

Yeah, I feel that. I mean, and I've been training a lot for a long time. And I mean, I don't I can't tell you the specifics. I don't know but it every single time. Like I can go back into my training logs and go back into like, my calendars. And I feel like every time like I look, I see that it works. I see that it works for me. Like I see my numbers go up. I see my sins go up. I'm like climbing harder things and I can look back and I can see all of it. But right now I'm like I hate this phase that I'm in like...

Kris Hampton  35:02

There's no metric to measure.

Will Anglin  35:04

I don't feel good, like, but I know that I'm keeping myself diminished, like, I'm keeping myself under this workload, because in a week, I'm gonna switch over to this thing. And then in four weeks, I'm gonna switch over to this thing, and then two weeks, then gonna feel good.

Kris Hampton  35:19

Right.

Will Anglin  35:20

And it's every single time. I have to like, like, Will, it's gonna be fine. And it's hard for me to do.

Kris Hampton  35:28

Do you do it Bruce Lee voice?

Will Anglin  35:29

Yeah, exactly.

Kris Hampton  35:32

 Or do you do Rowland's voice.

Will Anglin  35:33

 Yeah, it's a it's a really mean Bruce Lee with a low voice.

Rowland Chen  35:40

That's me.

Will Anglin  35:41

Man. Yeah. And I and I know it works. And it's still hard for me to accept it sometimes. And so yeah, like, I feel for people in that way. Like, I know, it sucks. And I think my, I don't, I'm not naturally talented at any sort of thing in climbing. I think the one thing that like, I have is, I'm really stubborn. And like, I don't like not being able to do things, and I'll put in the work. I'll do it ever it takes to get to where I want to go. 

Kris Hampton  36:20

And you're honest with yourself?

Will Anglin  36:22

 Yeah, I? Yeah.

Kris Hampton  36:23

I think that's super important.

Will Anglin  36:25

Maybe sometimes on it.

Kris Hampton  36:28

Yeah. And that can happen to you know, Nate, Nate called me. I don't remember if you called me or texted me. But he asked me this past winter. How many times in a given session, do you think you give 100% effort? And I thought about it for a while. And I think my answer was 0 to 3. 3 being a miracle session, you know, because, say you're Rowland shoes, and you're, you know, jumping with all you've got at this problem where you're smearing and throwing to a horrible pinch, but then you still can't hold it. Were you giving 100% effort you are giving what you had and what you knew. But, but you weren't giving the right efforts? You know, so in my mind, that's not necessarily 100% effort.

Will Anglin  37:19

 Yeah.

Rowland Chen  37:20

 You're gonna.

Kris Hampton  37:21

You're you're missing a big piece of it. 

Rowland Chen  37:23

Yeah. Because like, I was gonna add on to that, because my 100% like, physical tryhard is like, eyes closed, everything flexed.

Kris Hampton  37:29

Right.  That's awful for climbing that'll never get you anywere. 100% effort when you're climbing is like a totally different thing. And it's like such a rarity. It's like, well,.. Since we're giving since we're trying to, you know, hook you up here over the podcast. Is that how you meet girls too? 

Rowland Chen  37:50

Eyes closed everything flexed.

Will Anglin  37:55

Oh, yeah. Is it? Does it

Rowland Chen  38:00

I mean? No. All right.

Will Anglin  38:06

Just saying, you still single.

Kris Hampton  38:10

We're working on it. We're working it.

Will Anglin  38:12

We are working on it.

Kris Hampton  38:13

We're gonna set up a hotline and all the women are gonna call in Rowland.

Rowland Chen  38:19

With a W since we all know.

Will Anglin  38:21

Yeah. When it comes to trying hard. I like I know, I've tried 100%, three times, maybe five times in like, 16 years. 

Kris Hampton  38:33

Right. 

Will Anglin  38:34

And I remember that, like, some of the, it's, it's insane. It's a really cool feeling. And when you do it, and you think back on it, you're like, that was it. Like, that's insane. And it's learning how to try hard and try hard in the right way, is an ongoing thing. I mean,

Kris Hampton  38:55

Yeah, I agree totally. Because those, you know, those zero to three times per session that I would give 100%. Now, I might look back and say, oh, maybe I wasn't really giving 100% because this piece was still missing. You know, I didn't even know that that piece existed at the time. But now I'm beginning to understand it.

Rowland Chen  39:14

I was just trying to think like to when I was I've ever given like 100 true percent for climbing and I think it's never like, either try 100% and, like, flail off the Boulder, and just like flex my way to the ground. Or I like or I figure out something else to do. And it's like, Yeah, fine, or like learning to move and it's like, not a big deal.

Kris Hampton  39:34

Yeah, for me coming from a, you know, a Red River sport climbing background, it was always I want it to feel easy. Yeah, you know, I want to just execute it perfectly and, and I would find myself and I still find myself if I'm in the gym or even outside. If it's, if I know if I can see that. I'm not gonna be able to smooth my way through it. I might just Quit. Yeah, you better move on to something else.

Will Anglin  40:04

It's easy to  fall into that.

Kris Hampton  40:06

 For sure.

Rowland Chen  40:07

Because when you send spart climbs it's like it's like on a cloud almost sometimes.

Kris Hampton  40:10

Yeah. 

Rowland Chen  40:11

Like you're you're tired, but you're like, totally fine with it. 

Kris Hampton  40:13

Yeah.

Rowland Chen  40:14

 And like you just kind of cruise to the top with bouldering. It's like, way harder all the time.

Kris Hampton  40:18

Yeah it is. It definitely is. I spent my whole last winter learning to try hard. Because I can't as again as a Red River sport climber. I know. I'm bashing Red River sport climbers here, basically. But I'm with you. Get them? You know, I it was really hard for me to leave the ground trying hard. Yeah. Like, like they're the the route that I was just trying. And Wild Iris, the old guidebook used to have the description that said, step off the block and go boom. And I can't do that. Yeah, that's really hard for me to pull off the ground and just try super hard.

Will Anglin  40:54

 It's, that's, yeah, I think that's hard. I mean, I hope that's hard for everybody, or we're like, really terrible. But it's difficult to do that I especially find myself doing it sport climbing, because you always feel like I'm like, going to save it for something. Like, what are you saving it for? Do it, like, just do it. And then if you have gas at the top, you have gas at the top, like there's a time for efficiency, and there's a time to just rip it.

Rowland Chen  41:24

Yeah, hust rip it.

Kris Hampton  41:25

Right. And I think when you're learning all of it, you can combine that super tryhard with your new awareness of position, you know, your new POE, and you can make the two things work together. But you have to get really good at both of them first.

Rowland Chen  41:43

Yes.

Kris Hampton  41:44

because I know when I, when I try to talk myself into trying hard, I get stupid, like my climbing looks stupid, you know. And when I try to focus on my positions, and just move efficiently, like I like to, I'm not able to try hard. I tried to combine those two things. 

Rowland Chen  42:07

We always joke that like, I'm just mentally super weak. Like, I'm really bad at like, trying hard. Or like dealing with pain, or like,failure.

Will Anglin  42:17

Or failure.

Kris Hampton  42:19

I'm gonna cut this part out because you're not gonna get any dates this way. 

Rowland Chen  42:23

Oh, yeah. I'm like, basically just a super masculine dude. Like, like, I get shot a lot. It's just casual.

Kris Hampton  42:34

That's why you like rap.

Rowland Chen  42:35

Yeah, exactly. Um, but it's like, trying hard is the hardest thing to do, honestly. And in the right ways, like, in being able to deal with the fact that you're trying hard. And it's really difficult. And I find that like, every single day,

Will Anglin  42:48

That gets in, I think, to a really important thing, which is the difference between seeking success and seeking mastery. And that's been something that Rowalnd and I and and our, like, basically everyone we climb with. We try and focus on because it's so much more fun now. I think like it's I mean, sending something is great. But it it's not that great.

Rowland Chen  43:22

Like, like, you get to the top and you're like, alright, cool.

Will Anglin  43:25

But when you when you work for it, and it was something that

Kris Hampton  43:28

And isn't necessarily mastery is what you're saying.

Will Anglin  43:31

Yeah, no, success is not mastery at all. It's cool. And those two things combined. I think that's, for me at least the most fulfilling feeling and why I seek out stuff that is difficult. Like, again, like just to bring it back to Lincoln Lake today. Trying great war for civilization. That thing is brutal. For me, it represents almost everything that I'm bad at, like, with the exception of like, a really like like pure junk move. It's got everything I suck at. And I could just stop working on it. Like I've probably put eight sessions into it now nine sessions and not done it. And I've got stomped for a whole season on it. And it's the most time I've put into a boulder problem days wise, I think ever and I could very easily well I couldn't but a person could very easily just not do that boulder like go do the crimp tension boulder or you know, whatever it is that you're good at, like I could go do another eight be relatively quickly. But it doesn't that won't mean anything to me right? Where when I do this, I'm gonna, like lose it.

Kris Hampton  45:05

And I will do so in the process of working on Great War for Civilization. Are you employing the same POE? 

Will Anglin  45:14

Oh, yeah.

Kris Hampton  45:15

Ideas and tactics and you're not just going, I need to be stronger to, to grab this hold or whatever. 

Will Anglin  45:23

No, because I am stronger. I'm stronger than when I first tried it. But I'm still having the same kinds of issues because they're not...

Rowland Chen  45:29

You're not Zach who  just takes a shit on it.

Will Anglin  45:32

Yeah, he It's crazy. I was like, I can't do this move. It's like, how do you do it? And he just didn't even warm up. It was like the first move the day that he did. He just put his shoes on and did it. And I was like, oh, like, thanks.  It's not like he just barely do it. He got up and just went like this and watch like that. And then did it. And then went to the top. It was amazing. And so yeah, like I've basically had to break down every single move minus the first move, which is just which is just easy. But every other move. Other than the first move. I've had to like, break down and be like, Alright, my foots here. Why is it here? Like, I'm like, I have to hold this crimp. I need to wean off of it in a particular way. Just today, like I finally now I finally feel like I can say I'm close to doing it. And then the next couple times I try it. I'll end up doing it. Because today I am here first. Yeah. The two days ago, I finally figured out how to lean off of this left hand crimp in the scene, in order to do what for me is one of the hardest moves. But it's the move that Zach just dookies on all the time.

Kris Hampton  46:50

Right? And you just said I figured out how to lean off of it. It wasn't I got stronger and was able to hold this crimp in the scene. It was I figured out the position.

Will Anglin  47:00

 Exactly

Kris Hampton  47:01

The exact angle I needed to be at leaning off this crimp to make it work.

Will Anglin  47:06

Yeah. So I figured out how to wean off of it. But I was still not doing the move. Because I wasn't initiating the move. Right. And it's particular like you just have to do it right. And when you do it right, it's fine. And I but I I knew I was missing something. And I was trying and I watched Zach try it a couple more times. And while not try it, I watch him do it. Which is really helpful. If you're trying to learn something and someone can do it. You're like, oh, sick, like, Alright, do it again. Let me watch from this angle. And And today, I was really excited because I figured out like combined the lean with this little like exchange of pressure between the feet and this like little hip toss like micro kind of dead point and then you just whip up to it. We call it the granny arm. Because Zach Grunwald just does it like it's his thing. And he's so good out of it.

Rowland Chen  48:04

Like on one side of his body, and then just trace his shoulders, and then snap out and like the fastest. 

Will Anglin  48:10

It's like a really strong wet noodle.

Rowland Chen  48:15

Just like al dente,

Kris Hampton  48:17

Yeah. Zach is a really strong wet noodle.

Will Anglin  48:18

Yeah. If you Yeah, you watch him climb, like watch him do that boulder on Vimeo and you'll be like, that's a really strong limp noodle. And he just crushes it. Yeah, and I figured it out and I did the move a bunch of times and did it from a couple moves in and now I like I'm like, Okay, now I know how to do all the moves. Now I just have to do like four moves that I find really hard. That will require a lot of attention and I have to do them all in a row. And the weather has to be like somewhat Okay, and all that.

Kris Hampton  48:57

That one move off the crimp in the seam just so people have a reference point roughly you know not you don't have to look through your training logs or anything but roughly how many days did you spend just trying to figure out that move?

Will Anglin  49:13

Four this year.

Rowland Chen  49:15

Yeah, and a bunch last year.

Will Anglin  49:17

Probably five last year and three the year before

Rowland Chen  49:20

And you stuck at like one time by accident last year?

Will Anglin  49:22

Yeah. Yeah, I did. I did. Something worked. But I yeah, it was it but I didn't do there were like three moves that i i guess technically I did them like I went from one hold and to the other hold and held it. But I didn't do them in a way that would ever allow me to do the next move. So I did you really do the move? No, I did. Right. But two days ago and today I did every move and like link to every move together and you finally sound like okay, here it is. I know how to do it. Now it's time to do it.

Kris Hampton  49:58

Yeah. So multiple, you know, 9 10 sessions on one single move just figuring out the position one.

Will Anglin  50:07

Yeah, not just yeah, just figuring out how to, like, hang off of one hold. Like it's silly. It's so silly.

Kris Hampton  50:14

But I think it's important,.

Will Anglin  50:15

It's so silly. Yeah, it's important to me, but like, like, come on, dude. Like...

Kris Hampton  50:20

the answer isn't just stronger. 

Will Anglin  50:22

Yeah, no, it's, it's not sometimes you just have to be like, I know, I can do it. And I'm going to do it. Until I do it, like, however long that takes. I'm gonna figure it out.

Kris Hampton  50:36

That's definitely the quote that's going at the beginning. Yeah. I know, I can do it. And I'm gonna do it until I can do it.

Rowland Chen  50:45

Yeah, this might sound really corny. But a couple of weeks ago, I stopped thinking like, I don't think I can do that. And I started just saying, like, I don't get it. Yeah, cuz like, that's exactly what's happening. Because I feel like, I'm strong enough to do like, probably anything.

Will Anglin  51:00

Yeah, like, honestly

Rowland Chen  51:01

I just don't get how to do it. 

Kris Hampton  51:03

Yeah. And I think if you if you start with that, you start then running through the options.

Rowland Chen  51:07

Exactly. 

Kris Hampton  51:07

Start trying new things. If you immediately just admit, I don't get it. 

Rowland Chen  51:11

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  51:11

You start trying every possible position or holding the hold slightly different or moving your hips into a different place or whatever. 

Rowland Chen  51:19

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  51:20

You know, you look at all the options. Exactly. So is there an overriding philosophy for this POE? Is there something that you think embodies it?

Rowland Chen  51:31

Rules.

Will Anglin  51:32

No rules. There are rules. But the first rule is that there's no rules.

Rowland Chen  51:42

Yeah, we thought we keep trying to make like the basic rules of climbing, and we keep coming up with like, ridiculous stuff. Well, yeah, there's like five rules. The first rule is there's no rules. Yeah, and the second rule is like POE. But what what no rules means is that like, any way you can get into the right positions, like do it. Like there's no there's no...

Will Anglin  52:09

 I got my,I got I got my Bruce quote, lined up.

Rowland Chen  52:12

 Do it fireaway.  Bruce has the words.

Kris Hampton  52:14

 I was trying to prompt you for this. 

Will Anglin  52:15

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  52:16

I'm glad you figured it out. 

Will Anglin  52:17

Bruce has the word. Bruce Lee case you hadn't heard. He's the man. Anyway, so this, this is a quote from Bruce Lee that I think perfectly kind of sums it up. It's "man, the living creature. The creating individual is always more important than any established style or system." And I think that's..

Kris Hampton  52:46

Yeah, I think I think we can just stop it.

Will Anglin  52:47

 Yeah I mean.

Kris Hampton  52:48

Let let Bruce wrap it up. 

Will Anglin  52:50

Drop the mic, Bruce. 

Kris Hampton  52:52

All right. Thanks, guys. I don't know about you guys. But that was definitely a ton of fun for me. I know, we all had a great time in there. And we actually had a room full of people while we were recording that podcast. So it was a lot of fun to kind of share that, you know that energy with all those people and that's led to the idea of doing live podcast so I think we're gonna continue that but but anyway, I really really appreciate what will and enroll and bring to the table in the sense that they're not so focused on just the you know, the physical training aspect, the the lifting weights are the canvassing or the hang boarding there, they're very focused on the practice of it. And the position over everything idea is something that I've I've explored my entire climbing career, I've always said to everybody that I've worked with don't, don't climb from hold the whole climb from position to position and I think that's really important to really look into in your own climbing and figure out if that's what you're doing and if not, you know, step your game up. You can find will at willanglin.squarespace.com. And at tensionclimbing.com. Just checked on Rowland's Facebook, he is still single. So ladies, you're definitely gonna want to check out Rowland. You can find us at powercompanyclimbing.com you can support us on Patreon. And you can find us on Facebook, Instagram and Pinterest. But no Twitter's we don't tweet we scream like eagles.