In this episode, I have a short podversation with Carlo Traversi.  You know him as a boulderer, or maybe, if you follow him closely, you know that he's been the National Sport Climbing Champion.  But that's not all.  He started in Yosemite as a traddie, and plans on taking it back to there.  He calls it, "Folding the sport over on itself."  This concept resonates with me, as it's the path that I'm choosing as well.  

Carlo also has a thing or two to say about grades, where bouldering is headed, specialization, and 5.10 offwidths.  Uh huh, I said offwidths.  

The Power Company is now my OFFICIAL job, and I'm moving across the country, so I've been a little lax in getting this episode out, but it's here, and I have lots of conversations planned with trainers and athletes in the coming months.  Yes, including fan favorite Steve Bechtel.  We're about to ramp this thing up, including traveling workshops across the country this summer, so be on the lookout for dates!

Oh... and Nate has a few open spots to train with him through our mobile training app, so if you want to get your summer training started so that you can send some shit in the fall, NOW is the time.  You can learn about the plans HERE!

You'll also be seeing new Ebooks hitting the site soon.  The double bell follow up to the popular "Kettlebells for Climbers" plan will be hitting the site.  We're working hard on a "Movement" Ebook, as well as a "Core Training" guide, so keep your eyes peeled!

And one of these days, if I ever get around to it, I'll be posting tees, tanks, and hoodies up for sale.  Someday!

Like what you hear?  Subscribe to The Power Company Podcast on ITunes, Google Play, or Stitcher Radio, and leave a rating and review!

FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Kris Hampton  00:00

 What's up everybody? I am your host, Kris Hampton. And welcome to episode seven of the Power Company Climbing Podcast brought to you by powercompanyclimbing.com. This thing's official seven episodes. That means we're doing it. We're going forward. It's no longer just a thing. We might try and see what happens. So yeah, it's official. But first things first, we have some open spots in our mobile app training. Nate actually is taking on some more clients. He's got some open spots. So if you guys want to get your summer training going, and get ready for the fall, feel free to go over to powercompanyclimbing.com and hit the contact button. Shoot me a message. Let me know who you are, what you're looking to do, and we will get you set up if it's something that we think we can help you with. So yeah, hit us up. Also, last time I talked to you, we were headed out. Actually, I was headed out to Joshua Tree or actually I was headed to Vegas and that didn't work out. It was the second wettest spring Vegas has seen in recorded history. So we bailed to Joshua Tree pretty quickly. And I just climbed some granite cracks, which was a ton of fun. I hadn't been there in a long time. And really enjoyed it granite is a little harder than sandstone for me, obviously, because I've spent a lot more time on sandstone. So it was great to get to hone those skills a little bit. And actually we get into that a little within this conversation with Carlos Traversi. However, we a couple more things we also Nate and I recently went to Akron, Ohio to the Rock Mill to do a workshop which we felt really good about we felt like it was really successful. So big thanks to the Rock Mill. Those guys have got an incredible community there we really enjoyed the atmosphere in the gym and the gym is really top notch. So if you ever in Akron, check out the Rock Mill. Also a huge thanks to the New River Alliance of Climbers for having me out to an event that they were having at the American Alpine Club campground. They they invited me to present something I love those guys, they just trusted me with whatever it was I was gonna present. And I put together a slideshow and talk and performance of sorts, sort of a multimedia thing that I'm calling "float when falling is not an option." That's just really based on my life evolving around the word float. And if you're interested, I'll be at the International Climbers Fest, I'm giving that same presentation on the wednesday that starts the festival. And that's in Lander Wyoming, July 13 through 16th You can find info at climbersfestival.org. I'll also be doing the Art Walk I'll have some of my art pieces there for sale. And I'll be doing a clinic on learning how to climb and develop climb with and develop power. So yeah, check those guys out to climbersfestival.org. And this trip to Lander is going to be a little different. I just recently worked my final day at my former career of 17 years painting murals, and we're gearing up to move to Lander. And this next year is just going to be mostly a travel year. So it's going to be all Power Company and traveling and doing workshops and climbing around the country. And I'm pretty damned excited. So hopefully I see you guys out there somewhere either in Lander or somewhere around the country at our workshops, which I'll be announcing later so that you know where you can find Nate and I and check us out. onto this episode. I'm talking with Carlos Traversi. And if you have not listened to Episode One, Carlo was our first guest. And he had some really great insight into climbing with momentum going big. Carlo is not a big guy but he climbs big so he has a really great way of putting putting that into words that you can understand and into concepts that you can really grasp. So should definitely go back and listen to episode one. And while you're at it, you should listen to two through six as well. Why not? Today, what I'm talking about with Carlo is a concept he calls folding the sport back, back over on itself and I'll let him explain that to you. But let's just suffice it to say that Carlo is not just a one trick pony. He's not just a boulderer how a lot of us see him. He's been sport climbing national champion. He's climbed 14 plus sport routes, hard trad hardest ascents in the Alpine. He actually even onsighted the Freeblast after a year and a half or so of climbing, which he mentioned to me in the interview, and I'm telling you way too much. So I'm just gonna let Carlo take it from here.

Carlo Traversi  05:36

A long time ago, I reached the realization that the grades are basically meaningless to me. Kevin, Kevin jorgeson. I went to high school.

Kris Hampton  06:03

 Really?

Carlo Traversi  06:04

 High school. Yeah,

Kris Hampton  06:05

No kidding. Are you both the same age? Did you know other high school?

Carlo Traversi  06:08

 Yeah, we knew each other in high school. But he was like, three or four years older than me. So he graduated, like when I just basically started so. But yeah, we knew each other. Well, because our gym was really small. We all climbed at the same gym. So I grew up climbing with Kevin. 

Kris Hampton  06:22

Cool.

Carlo Traversi  06:23

 Yeah.

Kris Hampton  06:23

So. So what I want to talk to you about, basically, you've been kind of on this path that I really admire amongst climbers who are kind of at the top of their game in their respective niches of climbing, you know, and most people know you as a boulder. Ya know, you're, you've been national sport climbing champion. you've climbed hard sport routes, you've climbed hard trad routes. And what I didn't know that that you just told me is that you grew up learning to climb in Yosemite? 

Carlo Traversi  06:59

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  06:59

 That was your first climbing experience. Yep. And this path that you're on kind of taking bouldering, what you've learned in bouldering, and applying it to new types of climbing or back to routes, sport routes, trade routes, things like that. is really admirable, in my opinion. And I see some other people doing that as well. Yeah. So I'm psyched to just talk to you about know how you're taking what you've learned and turning it into these other aspects of climbing?

Carlo Traversi  07:29

Yeah, absolutely.

Kris Hampton  07:30

And you you've over the past couple of years, you've spent about six months in Yosemite, you said,

Carlo Traversi  07:36

Yeah, I spend usually every, for the last two years, I've spent October or November, December in Yosemite, just for bouldering purposes, just because there's so much development to be done there. It's also I have like a really soft spot for Yosemite, since I grew up, climbing there. And it's a place that I wasn't near and didn't have the opportunity to go to for quite a few years when I lived out in Colorado. And now I have the opportunity to go there and visit my family who I don't see that often in Northern California and then go climbing in Yosemite. And for me, it's a cool place. Because it's especially within the bouldering scene, it's really quiet, there aren't really that many boulderers that go there. Sure. There's a dedicated crew from the Bay Area, some people from Southern California that'll come up, but you see very little action, especially in the wintertime. If you're there during the week, during in the wintertime, there's basically no one there. And that's it's important to me to have that solitude and to be able to kind of just do what I want to do and experience that kind of just the majesty of Yosemite and and be a part of the history of all of the climbing that's gone on there in a very quiet way. Because there's no one there and you have somebody that time you're either no tourists, or at least very little tourists, right? It's a really, really quiet time of year. And it's just a nice time to enjoy one of the most beautiful valleys in the world.

Kris Hampton  09:01

And what about the, you know, the trad climbs and the walls there? Are you? Are you going there specifically because you can kind of hone your techniques that you that you haven't been practicing as much over the last few years and to take them elsewhere.

Carlo Traversi  09:20

Yeah, absolutely. I think Yosemite granite is one of the most demanding climbing mediums out there requires a lot of finger strength, and really, really precise footwork more than I think anywhere else on the planet. I think even more than Font, Yosemite footwork is the hardest I've ever been on. Yeah, I don't know why it's different than other granite areas. Maybe it's, I don't know, maybe it's just the way that the valley formed or the way the granite is there. But it is by far the most demanding for footwork. And that's always something that I felt was extremely important for myself in my own progression in climbing and being a better person. Potentially big wall climber or better at long, traditional routes. And just better at just being a good rock climber was to learn the Yosemite style and master the Yosemite style. And I've still, in the last, you know, two years that I've spent six months out of it there, I still feel like I'm not close to mastering it as well as I want. Yeah. And I will continue to climb there as much as possible to master that style.

Kris Hampton  10:26

And I do think that I know, we talked a little bit about this over breakfast today. But do you see the future of difficult climbing for the sport in general, going kind of the same direction that that you're starting to hit as well?

Carlo Traversi  10:45

Yeah, I think that I think that bouldering is gonna tap out. I think it kind of has whether people were willing to accept it or not. I mean, there really aren't... the V16s in the world are debatable, in terms of their difficulty? I feel like that people, there are plenty of climbers that have come along. And the problems that have been suggested at V16, may not be V16 for other people.

Kris Hampton  11:10

Sure. Yeah, they're going to be very body specific, very, condition, dependent, 

Carlo Traversi  11:15

Everything it's going to go everything's going to go into that i think i think that there are V15 in the world for sure. I mean, there's plenty of them. And I think that those those numbers have progressed to that point where those grades are warranted, where they distinguish themselves beyond V14 in multiple ways for multiple climbers. I think V16, though, is is very difficult to it's difficult to tack that number on with any sort of certainty. And yeah, it's been clear over the last five or six years that that's kind of been impossible to do. Sure, every V16, that's been put up has later been called easier, or, or what, yeah, 

Kris Hampton  11:51

Nobody's been able to really like stick the V16. Flag and exactly, stand by it.

Carlo Traversi  11:56

And, and a lot of people have different theories as to why that's the case. But my theory is that maybe boulders don't, aren't going to be possible at that level, you know, maybe maybe there is a limit for what our skin can hold on to. And what we're, we're capable of doing at this point in climbing, maybe with the shoe technology that we have, who knows, it could be a variety of different factors. This and this is just a theory, I may be wrong on this. But I think that it's gonna tap out in most regards, I think bouldering will get more specialized in certain ways. But that doesn't mean that the grades will, will specifically continue to progress as they have over the last, you know, 20 years. And I think that with that, we need to start looking at what the future of of what we can do with how we we need to look at how we've accomplished these bouldering skills and how we've, you know, harnessed this amount of skill to the point of the V15 level and how to apply it back to all other climbing. And for me, that means taking those those lessons we learned in bouldering. And those skills that we've gained in bouldering. And going back to trad climbing and sport climbing, specifically, I think trad climbing just because it's it's the most purest form. And most like big wall and Alpine climbs require a lot of trad climbing technique as well. And that that would be a really cool place to be bringing hard boulder into.

Kris Hampton  13:18

Yeah. And you laid out this really interesting sort of progression of climbing for me this morning, and I thought it was a really great visual. Just folding it all back into itself. That's that it's kind of come from, you know, starting with trad climbing and then sport climbing. And you know, if you could just lay that out for me again. 

Carlo Traversi  13:43

Absolutely.

Kris Hampton  13:43

That'd be great. 

Carlo Traversi  13:44

So I mean, basically, we started out a lot of people started out as you know, not everyone but most of climbing started out is we have these challenges of these walls and mountains and stuff like that. And we want to get to the top of them. And so people started tracking traditional climbing with switches back then it was just known as climbing, right? That's all there was. And slowly, we started finding that, you know, the cracks. There were things that we wanted to climb that didn't have features to protect. So we started bolting sport cliffs  exactly and we started bolting things, you know, in sport climbing, changed the way that trad climbing was, and with sport climbing skills, we were able to progress tried climbing a little bit further in some ways by adding bolts to you know, El Cap and stuff like that to protect free sections. And then, you know, it kind of progressed. bouldering started off in that realm too in order to practice for those walls and practice Crux movements for sport routes. So we started progressing bouldering and then bouldering kind of became its own thing, where we really pushed bouldering as far as we could possibly take it for the time being. And now I feel like we're at this point where bouldering has hit kind of a standstill. But still the hardest, actual moves on a trad route or on the hardest tried route to the hardest sport claims still are only, you know, maybe in the V13 range, and they're not nearly as hard as what people have accomplished. bouldering. Right, I think it's time to take that bouldering skills that we have, and just fold it back over and apply it back to traditional climbing and sport climbing to protect to, you know, progress of those realms. So it's a, it's a cool time in climbing, I think I think it's a really, it's a pivotal moment in terms of what we're going to be able to accomplish in those realms over the next few years. But I do believe it's not within the bouldering realm. I think it's within applying strong bouldering technique to in dynos and you know, really just kind of like much crazier movement and problem solving techniques to much bigger objectives.

Kris Hampton  14:12

the devils came in and started bolting Yeah, that's, that's really cool. And that's a great way to look at it. When you go back to, you know, when you when you start folding these things over and you go back to Yosemite, and you get on a, you know, a 5.13 crack, or the the hardest moves are, you know, the V grades are pretty small compared to what you're used to doing. Is there. Is there some frustration in, in having to build back through any grades, or is that something you relish the challenge of? And just how do you deal with that? 

Carlo Traversi  16:23

Yeah, I guess, a long time ago, I reached the realization that the grades are basically meaningless to me. Yeah, I spent a lot of time trying to prove that within the bouldering realm by downgrading and upgrading routes that I felt were different. And a lot of people know me as someone that loves to downgrade or loves. And for me, it was more of like a game just because I think grades are a game. They're not they're not real. They're, they offer nothing to the experience outside of, you know, an ego boost to some people. And I think that they're completely they're wrong in most cases. They don't, they're just not real.

Kris Hampton  16:59

I've always said they're a nice suggestion.

Carlo Traversi  17:01

Exactly. And it was always been funny to me when I downgrade stuff, because people get so worked up about it. But the reason why I spent time doing that, and making a point of downgrading certain things is because I just wanted to prove that it's all meaningless. It had nothing to do with me in terms of like ego stroking, being like, oh, this is easier for me. Like you guys all suck or something like that, you know, it was never like that. For me. I never wanted to like, the point was is just like, well, these people thought it was hard. I found a different solution. It feels easier for me to do it this way than other problems that I've done. Sure. I think the grades that whereas other climbs people I mean, it was funny because for so many years, people gave me crap for for downgrading things. And then I went and upgraded Spectre to V14 for me when I did that, right. And I thought that that thing was, for me, felt harder than most of  V14s that I'd ever climbed, you know, personally. And then people got angry at me for upgrading it thinking like, why does Carlo think he deserves V14 for it whenever else thinks its V13? Well, you know what, it's because none of this is real, this does... attaching a number to an experience on a climb is just completely ridiculous. Right? It's a suggestion for, for what you can expect the difficulty to be, but that doesn't mean that that's how it's going to be. Yeah. But But yeah, I mean, carrying on from grade for grades, I guess I've always had that perspective, at least for the last, you know, three or four years. So 

Kris Hampton  18:18

So you just take the challenge as it is?

Carlo Traversi  18:20

Exactly. I mean, I've gotten booted by 5.10 offwidth in the valley, like on many occasions. And I just accept that as that's, that is a specific challenge that I am not good at, and I want to get better at it, you know, and whether it's 5.10 or 5.14, each individual experience is going to offer a new challenge. And there's no point in getting attached or feeling hurt by the number involved in any direction.

Kris Hampton  18:45

I think it's great that you say that, because a lot of the younger, less experienced climbers, you know, see what what's put out there in the media and they see you as a boulderer. And then if they really closely follow you, they know that you've done some sport climbing. 

Carlo Traversi  19:01

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  19:02

But, but nowhere out there are people talking about how Carlo Traversi fails on 5.10 offwidth you know, and so I think it's important for those younger climbers to see that you have to build up this big bag of tricks. For climbing in general. And the bigger your bag of tricks, the better you're going to be at it.

Carlo Traversi  19:23

Exactly, and I mean, I mean, there's no, there's no, career wise, there's no point in me going off with climbing, but I enjoy getting better at all forms of grind. So when I've been in the valley, the last few years, I've spent a good portion of my time climbing like 5.9 and 5.10 offwidth climbing just to get better, because I want to climb big walls. And I know that there's going to be offwidth climbing involved in that sure want to have a mastery of that I don't want to be bad at anything in climbing. I want to have an understanding of the techniques involved in feel comfortable on any type of terrain. And so that's really important to me personally, and I spend a lot lot of time doing that.

Kris Hampton  20:01

You know, and I think that makes you just a better overall climber. Yeah, there are definitely specialists out there. Yep. So and we saw that in the, you know, the World Cup with the hand jam.

Carlo Traversi  20:14

Yeah,

Kris Hampton  20:15

fiasco where all these you know, V14 climbers are getting bouted by what looks like a 5.10 hand crack, you know, bomber hand jam. 

Carlo Traversi  20:24

Yeah, exactly. 

Kris Hampton  20:25

So I think it's important for people to see that somebody on on your level of your caliber knows what a 5.10 offwidth is like, and can go out and try these things regardless of the grade, you know, because they're just there are too many specialists out there as it is. And you say, I think the sports gonna have a hard time progressing, if everyone just specializes in one thing. 

Carlo Traversi  20:51

Exactly. And I think the specialization is cool. But yeah, I think it's good for people to focus on that specialization, but also have the perspective that that isn't the most important thing in climbing is to necessarily be specialized. You know, I think some people are really, really good at what they do. But I think that they should try and find ways to apply that specialization into other forms of climbing in order to keep things progressing in a good way.

Kris Hampton  21:16

Yeah, and we've, here's just a totally kind of off the wall question for you. Um, we've recently seen Emily Harrington Freed El Cap, and obviously Kevin and Tommy on the Dawn Wall. And, you know, it was kind of a everyone expected it from Tommy. You can sort of expect it from Emily because she's been doing all this alpine climbing and mountaineering and, you know, she's definitely been pushing herself into new realms. And, and that doesn't take away from what you know how amazing her accomplishment is.

Carlo Traversi  21:46

 Yeah, absolutely.

Kris Hampton  21:48

 Kevin was someone we knew as a boulderer. Yeah. And then he became this. You know, Dawn Wall conquering big wall climber.

Carlo Traversi  21:55

Yeah, yeah.

Kris Hampton  21:56

Is that somewhere you want to head? 

Carlo Traversi  21:59

Yeah, absolutely.

Kris Hampton  22:00

 Climbing bigger stuff. And we're gonna, are we gonna see Carlo Traversi freeing El Cap?

Carlo Traversi  22:04

I think Yeah, absolutely. I think for El Cap is a huge goal of mine. Just a lifetime goal. And not just one route. I'd like to free a lot of routes on El Cap. 

Kris Hampton  22:12

Very cool. 

Carlo Traversi  22:13

If I go after something like that. It's not I don't really like to do like one off things. Right. If I'm committed to doing something like I want to master it. So I've been trying to hone obviously, like off with technique and other crack climbing techniques. Just in more single pitch stuff in the valley. I've done a little bit of wall stuff. But not a ton. But I think Yeah, for the future, you're gonna see be seeing me on a lot more walls. Yeah,

Kris Hampton  22:38

I know, when Tommy was injured. You went up to support Kevin? I did. Yeah. And I was really surprised by that. I didn't, you know, I had never really thought of you as a big wall climber. Yeah, at all. So that caught me off guard for sure.

Carlo Traversi  22:51

And it's funny because I started off that way, right? Like, I started off climbing, not big, big walls in Yosemite, but you know, 6 to 10 pitch climbs. And Yosemite was like what I did when I was like, 15 and 16. Like, I climbed Freeblast onsight after like, a year and a half of climbing, you know, nice and like, I mean, that's not like a huge accomplishment nowadays, I think some people could probably free solo it, but like, for me, then you know, that was a that was a cool experience to have, you know, that was like middle of summer, like really, really odd...

Kris Hampton  23:18

 and that and that Prime's you for...

Carlo Traversi  23:19

it does 

Kris Hampton  23:20

succeeding, and you know, these life goals that you've got, because you've taken those skills you learned, you know, onsighting, the Freeblast, and yeah. And now you've got these V15 skills. And I think it'll be really interesting to see where you take it and where the sport goes, in general, with all this, as you put it, you know, folding back over on itself. And, again, I really liked that visual, I wish we had a little animation that I just put up of the sport folding over on itself.

Carlo Traversi  23:52

I think people will start to, regardless of whether I think that people are already seeing that happening, whether

Kris Hampton  23:58

Yeah, it's it's definitely going on.

Carlo Traversi  24:00

Yeah. And I think actually, Chris, I think is one of the the people that has started that whole movement, because Chris Sharma was such a strong boulderer and he pretty much quit bouldering right and started taking up sport climbing. And I know he hasn't done much trad but just by taking what he had done in bouldering, and moving it into sport climbing was already the start of that transition backwards. And I think that now it's just about taking it further and taking it to like big wall climbing. And Yosemite I think offers the most opportunity for that of any place that I've seen in the world because of the accessibility and the amount of rock that's there. And there are also like just an absurd amount of aid claims that haven't been freed there that really could come down to a V13 boulder problem being able to connect it. into a free climb and I think that that possibility is extremely exciting.

Kris Hampton  24:52

Very cool. Well I appreciate you sitting down again and talking with me and like i said i'm i'm looking forward to seeing where it goes. You know i'm psyched that guys like you are interested in going and trying to free some of these hard crack climbs that are guarded by, you know what a friend of mine calls nerd gates, that you you have to be able to make it through this, you know, heinous little boulder problem get into the crack and, and those skills are have just been developed in the last, you know, four or five years. 

Carlo Traversi  25:21

Yeah, exactly.

Kris Hampton  25:22

 So it'll be cool to see what happens.

Carlo Traversi  25:24

 Cool, man. Thanks for having me.

Kris Hampton  25:25

Yeah, man. No problem. Yeah. You know, it was back in 1982. Todd Skinner was one of the leading forces in popularizing this bouldering revolution that was happening in Hueco. And his reasoning was, if we can do the single hardest move on any rock climb, then we can do the rock climb. And that was my first inkling of this concept. And because I'm on that same path, now myself trying to take what I've learned in bouldering, and what I've learned in sport, climbing and move it back in, fold it back in, if you will, to my trad climbing roots and take it into bigger arenas. It was really special for me to talk to Carlo about it, and you know, kind of on the precipice of his journey, so to speak, as well. So yeah, Big thanks to Carlo. You can find him at carlotraversi.com. Don't forget about our E-book training plans, you can check those out a powercompanyclimbing.com also be on the lookout for workshops coming to your area. We're really excited about them, they've been going really well. And I think people are getting a lot out of them as well as Nate and I are so be on the lookout. Also, like I mentioned before, Nate is taking on some new clients. So if you're interested in starting your summer training hit me up. You can get me at powercompanyclimbing@gmail.com or you can just go to powercompanyclimbing.com and hit the contact link and that'll send a message right to me. If you're in Lander, definitely come check me out. I've got a bunch of interviews coming. I've definitely been taking some time off from this thing just because I'm gearing up to move and trying to get out of the Midwest. Now that the ridiculous can't breathe humidity is setting in. And yeah, I'll be talking to a bunch of people during the Climbers Festival. I've got some interviews lined up before OR  so I've got a bunch of good things coming your way. Next time. Hashtag we build machines.