In our first episode of 2017, we talk with climber Craig DeMartino, who also happens to be an amputee.  You'd never know it by talking to him or climbing with him, unless he pulls up his pant leg.  Despite the odds, he's become a better rock climber after deciding to amputate his leg.  That's correct; he DECIDED to amputate.  A tough decision that he's very nonchalant about.  

You can learn more about Craig's accident by listening to Episode 11 of The Enormocast.

You can find out more about Craig at: www.craigdemartino.com

We don't tweet.  We scream like eagles. 

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FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Kris Hampton  00:32

What's up everybody, I'm your host, Kris Hampton. Welcome to Episode 25 of the Power Company Podcast brought to you by powercompanyclimbing.com. We are officially just over one year old. And this is the first episode of The New Year. And I think that officially makes  us toddlers, which, which honestly makes us a little bit dangerous. So you're gonna have to prepare yourselves, you're gonna have to cover all the sharp corners in your house, you're gonna have to lock up your cabinets, because we're running around everywhere, in 2017. Right now, though, we are in Chattanooga, Tennessee, where I've spent quite a bit of time in the winters past. And, you know, years ago, when I first came here, I went to Rocktown, and I saw this boulder that houses the problem, Golden Harvest, which is a V10, that might be one of the most beautiful boulders on earth. And my first thought when I saw it was damn, if I'm ever able to climb that thing. Someday, that that would be that would be the culmination of my climbing career. And I've kind of put all my chips in on that problem. While we've been here, and I'm making progress, but it's it's subtle, tiny progressions that are tough to measure. And it's a little bit funstrating. That's, that's my new word lately. You don't have to adopt it. It's not very good. But that's what I'm using funstrating. And, yeah, all the chips are in. So we're gonna see what happens right now the weather is not working in my favor. But I'll get a few more days. And I feel like I'm close. And if I don't do it, it'll still be there. And I'll come back better prepared next time, and I'm having an amazing time climbing on it. So yeah, that's where we're at here. Annalissa is crushing everything she touches. So I'm not gonna let her touch Golden Harvest, because that would completely destroy my ego. And I don't know if I can handle that at this point. I'm a little fragile. Yeah, so my, my fragile ego has two more weeks here. And then we had to Hueco Tanks, which I'm extremely excited about. I've never been, it's gonna be amazing. That's really all there is to say about it. Today on the podcast, we've got Craig Demartino. And if you if you google Craig's name, the first thing that you come up with is his website, craigdemartino.com. And the website description there and Google says Demartino as a disabled rock climber, motivational speaker, etc, etc. But I think he's a rock climber who happens to be disabled. I don't think I could categorize him as a disabled rock climber, because he's fully able. And if you've ever met Craig, out at the crags, then I think you'll share that sentiment, and he certainly embodies it. So if you know Craig had an accident in 2002, and if you've not heard about the accident, you should definitely go to Episode 11 of the Enormacast where OG climbing podcast, or Chris Kalous has a really epic, inspiring conversation with Craig about his accident. We don't go into the details here. We sort of skirt around that and talk about some other things. So definitely go to Episode 11 of the enormacast go to Craig's website, there are several short films that Craig has told his story in the Gimp Monkeys as well as a series called The Season. And you should check those out and learn a little more about Craig. So I'm just gonna jump into this thing. Let's do it.

Craig Demartino  04:28

You know, you're gonna hit bumps in the road. I mean, I hit a bump in the road and you got it. You're gonna go around, or you're gonna let it bury you. And I went around it and so you can do the same thing.

Kris Hampton  04:59

What year was it?

Craig Demartino  05:00

2000 I got hurt in 2002 in July, and then I kept my leg for 16 months and then amputated 18 months after. 16 months, when I decided like, okay, this isn't gonna work, and then went back in 18 months and ended the amputation. And that kind of so that was actually only three at that point. But...

Kris Hampton  05:23

So the accident was 2002.

Craig Demartino  05:25

So hit the ground, July of 2002. And then surgery after surgery. Surgeries. In and out of the hospital, and then you know, three in 2003. In December, the doctor was just like your, it's not going to heal. And so what do you want to do? You can't no more, you're not gonna be able to climb. And I was like, so talk to Cindy and talk to a couple people who had cut their leg off and were semi active again.

Kris Hampton  05:51

I love that you say that. So nonchalantly cut their leg off. It was one of the powerful moments hearing you talk is, is talking about this Sharpie moment? 

Craig Demartino  06:00

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  06:01

On your leg. 

Craig Demartino  06:02

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  06:02

And to me that, I imagine for you that represents, like a turning point.

Craig Demartino  06:07

Yeah, that's when you get to that, you know, you're at that fork. And you you don't have to go down, right? Because it's it's elective. But I kept thinking, you know, do I want to climb? Do I want to be outside? Do I want to be doing the things that I do. And so you sign your name on your leg. And you've, you've committed? Because I mean, really up till that point, you're not committed. You're you're talking about it, you're, it's, it's semi real, but it's not all the way real. When you sign on it, that's really your last official act for that, that limb. And so you because once you sign it, they knock you out. And you know, when you wake up, it's it's gone. And then you can't back it up. But to me, it became such an objective thing. It was just like, my body is not working the way I needed to work. And so how can I? How can I kind of help it along this road to get me back to where I want to be? And that was that was what I had to do. So it wasn't it was weird and hard. But once I got to that part, it was like, yeah, this is good. I'm ready now. So...

Kris Hampton  07:08

Yeah. And what I want to kind of dig into with you today is I don't know whether to call it overcoming limitations or ignoring limitations or just no limitations. I don't know. I don't really know what to call it. How do you, you know, when you made that decision, when you signed your leg and said, Yeah, let's let's cut this thing off? How did you? How did you think of the next step? Like was it? Am I gonna overcome limitations? Or was it I'm just not going to have limitations? I'm just gonna keep going with what I do.

Craig Demartino  07:45

I think it was a combination of all that it wasn't one thing me saying I'm not gonna be limited or, or that it wasn't that conscious of a decision, it was more that I looked at my leg, I looked at I you know, have a fused back of a fused neck have all this chronic stuff in my body.

Kris Hampton  08:02

Right.

Craig Demartino  08:03

I thought, Okay, this isn't gonna work. So I'm going to cut the leg off and then see what I can do. It was just more of a I want a curious person by nature, I think. And so I'm like, Okay, let's see what this is going to do. I never thought, yeah, I'm gonna go climb in the valley, or I'm never I didn't have a plan. It was just, I'd like to try to climb again. 

Kris Hampton  08:24

You knew there were gonna be challenges ahead.

Craig Demartino  08:26

Correct. 

Kris Hampton  08:26

And you were willing to face those.

Craig Demartino  08:29

Yeah. And like Cindy, and I talked about it a lot. And we'd been married a long time at that point. And she said to me, you know, if you don't want to climb again, I totally get that. But she's like, but if you if you want to climb again, I totally get that too, because she's been a climber as long as I have. So it was like, "am I ready to take this thing out of my life that is basically my DNA and just ignore it?" And and that was more the driving force. For me, it was like that, I can't ignore that. And I wanted to decide that I didn't want the accident to be the thing that kept taking from me, because up until that point, it was whereas the leg I kind of look at that as the first step that I took positively towards recovery, because I could...

Kris Hampton  09:10

Interesting.

Craig Demartino  09:11

...just move. 

Kris Hampton  09:12

Yeah. So so it wasn't just that you are and here's the here's why I'm having a tough time putting this into words because you know, I'm not in that situation. And it's so easy for all of us to if we have a finger injury, you know, feel sorry for ourselves like oh, I don't get to climb for six months, you know, I have to rest and I just went through a shoulder surgery last year. And it was six months before I could really climb again and it during that time I talked to Ranveigg who you're friends with as well. And it really put everything into perspective. For me like, man, this is such a minor setback, you know. And looking at your decision making process. You had a major setback. A big one and having to decide oh I'm going to cut my leg off and that's a positive step. 

Craig Demartino  10:06

Right.

Kris Hampton  10:06

 That seems outlandish to me, you know, I can't even imagine it. But I guess when you're in those in that circumstance, you know, we tend to rise to the occasion.

Craig Demartino  10:15

And it's like, it's like, I can look at your shoulder, you did your shoulder, because you knew you had to...

Kris Hampton  10:20

Right.

Craig Demartino  10:21

 So that you can move forward. 

Kris Hampton  10:22

Right.

Craig Demartino  10:22

So you you did the same thing. It's just you did it inside instead of out.So.

Kris Hampton  10:26

And on a much lower scale?

Craig Demartino  10:28

Yeah. but, like an injury is an injury.

Kris Hampton  10:31

Let's be honest here.

Craig Demartino  10:32

I think an injury is an is an injury, like I read talking to Ronveigg a lot, obviously, and seeing her injuries, it's like, they're all bad, you know, there's not a good injury out there. 

Craig Demartino  10:43

And I think sometimes the stuff that is chronic and like, my finger is hurt. It's funny that you said that. So my middle finger is always sore. And I'm like, that is a pain to me. Like that's like God dangit that thing won't heal like what is going on. And those are, those are, I think, sometimes hard to deal with. Whereas like the big ticket ones, like, you know, you rip your labrum apart and got to fix it. That's a big surgery. That's a lot of rehab. And then and I think the big thing is the unknown. Can I come back from that? And, and for me, I had no idea. I just figured it, I'm not gonna know if I can come back unless I do something. So I might as well do it and find out and go slow and see how it goes. And for me, it was very, I was fortunate that I had a good support group around me. My wife is super, super supportive. It's gigantic. Ronveigg the same way. I mean, she had her husband Nathan and and then I we've had friends and the climbing community is you know that the tribe is incredibly supportive.

Kris Hampton  10:43

Right. 

Kris Hampton  11:45

It really is.

Craig Demartino  11:46

So but I kind of feel like I had all the positive stuff in a row for me to kind of get back out there and see what was gonna happen. 

Kris Hampton  11:53

Let's talk. Let's go back to that time, like when you, when you were out of surgery, you're thinking about going climbing again. That first time you went out climbing? Did you have a prosthetic already to try out and see what it was like? I know you had to develop a climbing foot for it but...

Craig Demartino  12:14

We uh, so the first time I went was probably eight months after the accident. I my foot was still in a cast. I was out of the back brace. I was out of the neck brace had done like 11 surgeries. And we went to a Lander. 

Kris Hampton  12:30

That's right I remember hearing that.

Craig Demartino  12:31

Went to Wild Iris.

Kris Hampton  12:32

 Yeah. 

Craig Demartino  12:32

And that wasn't. It was It was terrifying. It was just like we were on the at the O.K. Corral. And the end of the O.K. Corral on a 5.8. My daughter climbed it. Just she was probably seven at the time. She kind of hikes right up at and she caught me off guard because when she came down, she just said, "Do you want to climb?" And I was like, yeah, you know, let's see what happens. And I tied in and the climbing felt hard. It felt really awkward. The cast climbed like crap, as you can imagine, getting to the anchor was just absolutely terrifying again. Just to let go. And that was like, Okay, that was interesting. But I kind of kept repeating that over time over probably the next year. And then thinking, "okay, this legs not going to work." I can't take it out of the cast, so I can't really climb on it. So what do I do with it? And once I amputated then I was back, I think four months after with that I didn't have a prosthetic that had a climbing foot on it. I just put a climbing shoe on my fake foot. 

Kris Hampton  13:35

Yeah.

Craig Demartino  13:35

 And I climbed like that for a while. And then the guys who make my leg said, well, we'll make one out of titanium. make it shorter, because yet, when a full size foot, it moves around too much. 

Kris Hampton  13:48

Sure.

Craig Demartino  13:48

Cuz you can't control the toes. Yeah. And so we made a titanium one. And I climbed on that for probably two years. And realize, okay, this, this isn't probably going to be the best idea. But I mean, I climbed El Cap, El Cap twice with that and climbed you know, sport routes outside over steep stuff.

Kris Hampton  14:05

I mean, we're going back to this nonchalant I climbed El Cap twice in that titanium leg.

Craig Demartino  14:10

Yeah, titanium leg worked great. Got stuck in cracks really bad. That was the only downside to that leg was like God, I get an a hand crack and just be like, swallowed. 

Kris Hampton  14:18

Oh, yeah. 

Craig Demartino  14:19

And so that slowed our times down a couple times. But...

Kris Hampton  14:22

So the first limitation was psychological. 

Craig Demartino  14:25

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  14:25

It was mental.

Craig Demartino  14:26

 Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  14:26

And then you you worked your way through that while you still had the leg? 

Craig Demartino  14:31

Correct. 

Kris Hampton  14:31

And then you cut the leg off?

Craig Demartino  14:33

Yeah. Because, like, psychologically, I think what you have to do is you have to get to a point where, you know, this is as good as it's gonna get. So what's my quality of life? And is that the quality of life I want for the rest of my life? And on no day, could I answer that as a yes, it was always No, this is not what I want to do. I don't want to be sit. I don't want to be just like, well, I did all these really cool things and now I don't do them anymore. And I would look at Cindy and she would be going climbing, I'd look at our friends, they'd be going climbing and I think I want to do that. 

Kris Hampton  15:06

Yes, you're like, let's figure out a way to make this happen

Craig Demartino  15:08

How, what do I do? So that's how...

Kris Hampton  15:10

Pain free as much as possible.

Craig Demartino  15:11

Pain free and just like what's gonna work long term, because everything up till that point was kind of short term fixes like we're, we're gonna put screws in and we're gonna put plates in and that's fine, but then they don't work long term. So it's like, what's going to work long term for me and that's when somebody said, Well you can amputate your leg now I was like, ooh, really? What's that like, and then meeting some guys who had done it and like I said, who were reasonably active and they talk about being ambulatory. That's like the mark that set for everyone. It's like, well, I don't really want to be ambulatory. Like, I want to be able to throw a pack on and hike to a go climb. 

Kris Hampton  15:49

I want to go beyond this.

Craig Demartino  15:50

And so, yeah, I'd like to know what what is past ambulatory. And they were just like, yeah, we don't know. Good luck. 

Kris Hampton  15:57

And that's what's remarkable, you know, you you just jumped into it without knowing what the end result might be.

Craig Demartino  16:02

Naive. 

Kris Hampton  16:04

Yeah, maybe that's maybe that's a big part of it. 

Craig Demartino  16:06

Naive is a good word. 

Kris Hampton  16:07

Yeah, for sure.

Craig Demartino  16:08

If you don't know, then you don't know what to ask. And you just go, Oh, okay. 

Kris Hampton  16:12

Let's see what happens.

Craig Demartino  16:13

 Yeah

Kris Hampton  16:13

Yeah. And that's, you know, I think maybe climbing prepares you for that a little bit. Yeah, cuz that's the sort of what we do every day. 

Craig Demartino  16:19

It's like onsighting a route, it's like, I'm, I'm gonna go another couple feet higher and see what I see. And then, oh, hey, look at that I can keep moving. And that's exactly how it worked to like even the very first time I talked to, you know, so I got my leg kind of under control and was climbing had the metal foot made. And that's how I was talking to Hans Flourine, just happened to email him and ask him for some speed climbing tips for this comp, I was going to enter. And that is he was just like, he wasn't just supportive. Like he was like, over the top supportive, like, Oh my gosh, what do you need? 

Kris Hampton  16:53

Hans kind of does everything  over the top.

Craig Demartino  16:54

Dude, he just like jumping right in, you know, he's like, yo, come out to the valley, we'll climb El Cap together, I'll do it in a day, you need to be the first amputee and, and I'm just sitting there going, what the hell is this guy like, this is insane. And that was pretty, pretty much how my whole experience has been to this day, I just meet these great people who are who are able to say, yeah, how can we support you? And how can we help you? And you're going to do XYZ, we want to help you do that. So it's just been like an exploration more than anything, just see what happens. See how it works. And sometimes it works. And as you know, and sometimes it doesn't, and that's fine, too. I learned a lot from, from the missteps, as well as the successes. So.

Kris Hampton  17:36

Definitely, I think you have to one of the one of the things I found really cool. I think I saw it in The Season watching, you know, some of your episodes of The Season. And you'd had this list of things you wanted to do. And wanted to repeat, that's how the list started. 

Craig Demartino  17:54

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  17:55

And then you found yourself able to do things that you hadn't been able to do when you had two legs. You know, and I think that's really interesting making that, that jump into, I'm not just gonna be what I was before, I'm gonna be better than I was before. 

Craig Demartino  18:13

Right. 

Kris Hampton  18:13

You know, and, and I think that's tough, even like we were talking about before, when it's a small injury. You know, you think, Oh, it's I'm done. You know, I've done the best I can do. But getting past that's a huge thing. You know, and I'm sure that was a slow process. But do you remember a moment when you had this mental shift of, oh, wait a minute, I'm repeating all this stuff. I can, I think I can do harder.

Craig Demartino  18:37

Yeah, I absolutely. The first list was 10 climbs. And so we kind of motored through the first eight or so. And they were none of them. You know, at that point, before I got hurt, I would kind of redpoint, probably 12a-ish 12b-ish. That was about it. Because I just didn't try that hard. I was like, I could get there pretty quickly, like I could almost on site to that level. And I was like, yeah, that's really, I'm fine with that. That's, that's cool. 

Kris Hampton  19:03

A little complacent.

Craig Demartino  19:04

Yeah, you know, it's comfortable.

Kris Hampton  19:06

It's easy to do that. 

Craig Demartino  19:06

And I was moving outside, I was feeling happy about that. So then I get hurt. And I realized, like, just the climb 5.8 I have to work really hard. And I had to climb 5.9 5.10 all the way up through the grades. And then all of a sudden, in part of the list, one of the climbs was about 11.d and I get to that and I'm like, this is gonna be interesting. Get on it. And I realize I can do the moves, but I can't link anything because my leg is kind of skating all over the place. And I'm trying to figure out body position, new body mechanics, all that stuff. And I do it. And I'm like, well, no, wait, so I was trying probably halfway hard. Like, I knew I wasn't bearing down all the way because I was like, I don't know that I bear down all the way ever like I...

Kris Hampton  19:51

That's tough.

Craig Demartino  19:52

It is like in you and you have to be able to look at yourself and say have you like have you really tried? And I was like I don't know that I have. So then I'm like why wonder What happens if I now with this body and this leg? If I really do bear down and try, what's that gonna look like? And so then I started to that was like a switch for me like a, like a big, almost like a light switch like, I'm gonna now try hard. And Cindy said, She's like, I could see it in you. She's like, all of a sudden, like, I don't climb plastics real well, I mean, I can climb it okay, I can hold my own, but it's like, it's not my favorite medium.

Kris Hampton  20:26

Ror sure. I'm with ya.

Craig Demartino  20:27

Right. It's like, I use it for training. Yes, what I use it for. And she's like, you know, when I see you climb in the gym, she's like, it's almost like the same person I see climb outside, cuz she's like, when you get outside, she's like, you flick a switch. And she's like, you will go and she's like, doesn't matter what the gears' like, it doesn't matter where the bolts are, you just go and I can do that in my head now. And before I couldn't do that, because I really didn't have to, because I was strong enough to hold on and go, eh I'll just figure it out.

Kris Hampton  20:54

 Yeah, you were you were climbing at a level high enough that you could just be like, Oh, I'm good.

Craig Demartino  20:58

You can almost fake it, you know, right, you're just kind of like, I'll show up, I'll do it. It's gonna be I loved it, it was really fun. But then all of a sudden, I started trying harder. And because my body would give me like this small window of time, like, okay, you can try hard from 11 to 2, and then your going to shut down. So you better try hard in that two hour period. And that's what I started doing was just like these small windows of I'm gonna give it 100% and see what happens. And I started punching up through grades then. And all of a sudden, I'm like, man, like, kind of wish I'd have been doing this all along, because I might have been a little further up on the curve here. And, and that just, that was a big game changing switch in my brain of just, "Okay, I'm gonna try really hard for 85 feet, and see what happens." And now I'm not gonna take I'm gonna fall, if I fall fine. But I'm not going to just stop the bowl, because I'm tired. It's like I'm gonna punch through and to see where I get to. And 

Kris Hampton  21:52

Yeah.

Craig Demartino  21:53

 You know how that is, like, every now and again, you hit the year, like, I'm gonna go one more move and see what happens. And you're like, hey, look at that. I'm still on the rock. That's amazing. So that was the shift for me of, Okay, my body's gonna only do this for so long. Let's see what it'll actually do now.

Kris Hampton  22:07

Man, maybe we need to call this thing using limitations, because, because that's really what you're doing, you know, you, you see these limits, and you're like, "Oh, I'm gonna use that to push me..."

Craig Demartino  22:18

Right.

Kris Hampton  22:19

 To try harder or to make a really tough decision.

Craig Demartino  22:22

Right.

Kris Hampton  22:22

Or, you know, whatever it is, you're using those limitations to...

Craig Demartino  22:26

You have to recognize. 

Kris Hampton  22:27

...for positivity.

Craig Demartino  22:28

You have to recognize and you have to look at something, I think be able to say, right, there's the right, there's the wall. And so I want to get, I want to get as close to that as I can before I get hurt, but I want to get right up against it. And see what happens. Because that's where I that's where I've learned the most, that's when, you know, like yesterday, we were at this route that we Cindy was working it I had done it. So I put the draws on it. And then the route to the next to the right of it. I was going to work on that one. And I was maxed so hard. And I told her when we drove home, I was like that is as close to it as I've been to blowing my fingers out on on a route. 

Kris Hampton  23:05

Yeah.

Craig Demartino  23:05

Ever. Like I was pulling so hard. Like, it's like, that is the that's my limit right now. But I was like, I want to see if I can get to that curb that right at the limit and then back it down a little bit. So I don't get injured. But 

Kris Hampton  23:20

Yeah.

Craig Demartino  23:20

It's kind of it's kind of exciting. It's kind of fun. 

Kris Hampton  23:23

It is.

Craig Demartino  23:24

And you realize what your body can and cannot do. And I think that's valuable information to have.

Kris Hampton  23:28

Yeah, I had a really I had a really similar moment when I was coming back from the shoulder injury when Nate who you just met who texted me and asked me and I've said this on the podcast before, but it's really relevant here. He texted me and asked me how many times a session Do you give 100%. And I thought about it for a while and I had actually been working on learning to give 100% because as a Red River route climber my go to was relaxed mode.

Craig Demartino  23:57

Right.

Kris Hampton  23:58

Give as little as possible to make it happen.

Kris Hampton  24:00

You know. And I finally answered him, zero to three. You know, even when I'm trying to give 100% I can step back down and say, I don't think I was giving 100% there. You know, I don't think my core was completely tight or whatever. And learning to do that was really important. And I don't think I would have come across that had it not been for, you know, the shoulder injury that made me become a lot more mindful of what I was doing. With the time I was spending on the wall. We can take a break here if you need to get that. 

Craig Demartino  24:00

Hold on just enough.

Craig Demartino  24:33

He's picking up that.

Kris Hampton  24:34

Take a break. 

Kris Hampton  24:36

 What's up everybody? Kris here, Pardon the Interruption. I'll keep this short and sweet. Since this podcast started taking off and we've been growing it you guys have been asking how you can help out. I've got three ways for you. Number one, you can become a patron. That just means you give a monthly donation to the podcast $1 and up and you get something in return and you can check out what those rewards are at patreon.com/powercompanypodcast. Best of all, we'll keep it sponsor and commercial free for you. Number two, you can rate us and review us on iTunes. I know it's a pain in the ass to go to iTunes and do all that. But it really helps us out. At least that's what I'm told by the podcast powers that be. And number three, perhaps the easiest way, and the best way to help us out is to share us on your social medias. Anytime you see us post up a new podcast, please share it with your friends, tag people who will really appreciate it, or who need to hear the advice that we're giving. All right, thank you guys. And back to the show. 

Kris Hampton  25:41

All right, where were we I was starting to ramble. And my fiance was gonna yell at me. When she heard it, she always yells at me for rambling. So 

Craig Demartino  25:48

That's not true. You can never ramble enough.

Kris Hampton  25:52

 So I'm curious if there's anything that you've learned about climbing since the accident, because like I just said, I became more mindful of what I was doing. And and it sounds like you did the same, you know, learning to try really hard. Is there some are there other things you've learned about climbing that you've recognized since you had to do it with just one leg?

Craig Demartino  26:17

So my, I used to before I got hurt, what I would do is like I was I think like everybody else, like you look at a route or a problem. And you'd be like, I'm having trouble doing that, because I'm not strong enough. I'm too short. I'm too tall. I can't bend that way. 

Kris Hampton  26:32

Right.

Craig Demartino  26:33

 I could probably tell you four different reasons why I couldn't do it.

Kris Hampton  26:36

Yeah, we've all got our list of excuses at the ready at all times.

Craig Demartino  26:40

Check, you know, and, and what I realized that after, and a lot of this came from, I would I started to work with folks who were like in the hospital, right? So they're gonna cut their leg off or their arm off or something, I go and talk to them. And so we'd had these conversations where they're talking to me about how fortunate I am and able to be back out there and so excited for me, and wow, this is great. And I started thinking, you know what I I am pretty damn lucky like kit to go through what I went through. The list of injuries is so long spinal cord injury still and all this fun stuff where I can't feel so I have the prosthetic, I can't feel my other foot because of the spinal cord injury I have can't feel my finger.

Kris Hampton  27:24

 You got no sensitivity and the other foot either?

Craig Demartino  27:26

I can if you if you hit it hard, I can feel like light touch. 

Kris Hampton  27:29

So like stepping on a little edge, you can't feel that at all?

Craig Demartino  27:32

I climb by sight, I just look at everything.

Kris Hampton  27:34

 Wow. 

Craig Demartino  27:34

And then my hands because of the way I broke my neck. They don't I can't close all the way. So like I can crimp pretty good and I can hand jam. But like they don't, they're just not as dexteraious. So it's like, okay, so I have this, I can look at that list and be like, well, I can't do this. Because of these things. What I...

Kris Hampton  27:52

Right.

Craig Demartino  27:52

 It gave me this perspective of you know what, though, but you can do it. If you want to, if you really want to go do it, you can do it. So it doesn't matter if your foot doesn't work, it doesn't matter if your hands don't work, if you really want to do it, you'll probably figure out a way to do it. And that's what I started to adopt as my mentality of, I'm not gonna be able to climb this the way I used to climb, which would be to just thug my way through it. I'm actually going to have to use footwork, I'm going to actually have to use some technique and some body position and climbing i think is a great teacher of that of okay, where's your body right now? Should it be there. Should your toe be over there should it be up another inch and that those are things I never paid attention to. I would just get in there and be like, "ah" and just go. And you can do that to a certain level, I think but then you hit the wall pretty hard. And you stop and you stop improving. And that was for me to my body would just be like, yeah, we're not gonna do that. So you can either let go or we're gonna tear it something's gonna break. And so I would like, let go because initially I went I went back I went back the same way. Like, I'm gonna climb the way I did. That was what the list was all about was I'm gonna go do these climbs no matter what. Well, some of the...

Kris Hampton  29:04

Get back to the old me. 

Craig Demartino  29:05

Yeah. And I was like, two things. I realized really quick. The old me is gone. Right. And you have to say goodbye to that person. And the new me is has got to learn this sport again. So it was like...

Kris Hampton  29:17

It can be an improved version.

Craig Demartino  29:18

 Yeah, absolutely. It's like 2.0. And it's, it's like, okay, what were you doing wrong? Okay, you never used your feet. You always tried to force stuff. Instead of just like reading the route, like looking at the route and going okay, here's where this is going to send me I'm going to, I'm going to use that. 

Kris Hampton  29:34

It's interesting that you're learning to use your feet by losing a leg and not having the feeling and the other foot.

Craig Demartino  29:40

Cutting. Cindy, Cindy says all the time she's like, man, before you got hurt, she's like your footwork sucked. And she's like now she's like you actually use your feet and she's like, you know that I can tell you what my procetical stick on because I just practicing so much. Exactly, because now I pay attention to it. Like if I'm doing any kind of stepping through or flagging. Or I can tell you right where it's going to be good and where it's probably going to spit off. And so you, you just learn like, oh, my mechanics are so different now. I have to pay attention to this. And I have to be a better climber. And I think that the accident did that it made me a better more well rounded climber than I would have probably ever been. Had I not gotten hurt.

Kris Hampton  30:23

Yeah, that's really interesting. I, I had never thought of it until just right now. But you know, all those old school guys who climbed in like board lasted shoes, yeah, had this amazing footwork, you know, maybe I need to start putting my clients in like old, Boreal lace ups.

Craig Demartino  30:37

Junky mountain boots. 

Kris Hampton  30:39

Yeah, for real. Put em in Timberlands, and have em...

Craig Demartino  30:42

 You, you don't realize like how, how much your feet can do. Somebody just said to me yesterday, they were saying if you're, if like, you have to pay attention to the amount of core tension in your body in the middle, but you also have to pay attention to how much that is pushing down on your toes.

Kris Hampton  30:59

How much pressure you're putting on that.

Kris Hampton  31:01

 Well and you should for sure. 

Craig Demartino  31:01

And when you're letting it off. And when you're not letting it off. And I was like, gosh, that's so true. Like, a lot of times, I'll forget. And you know, my footwork will slide or something. And it's because I'm not keeping the tension all the way through. And with having a fused back, I'm fused my lumbar one through four. So you have this, for me anyway, it keeps me more upright, which actually helps my core. So it's kind of like this, I can kind of cheat it a little bit, I can kind of slide down on my hardware a little bit and kind of let it pull me in. But then it also if I'm trying to buck out of it real quick, you don't bend as well. So then it's kind of a bit of a hindrance there. But it's like, all the things that they've put in me or taken off of me. I've used in as a tool kind of to help my climbing be better. Because like, the hardware I use.

Craig Demartino  31:04

Yeah, you have to. Because if you just go, Oh, god, this is horrible, then it'll be horrible. And I'm a big proponent of just saying every day, I mean, make the choice every day, okay? It's gonna be a good day or a bad day. It's either one because there's days I feel like crap, as we all do, but.

Kris Hampton  32:01

For sure. 

Craig Demartino  32:01

Especially as you get older. I mean, that's just like, stuff just hurts.

Kris Hampton  32:05

 That's my number one excuse. 

Craig Demartino  32:06

Yes, that's right. I'm old.

Kris Hampton  32:08

This is not an old man problem. 

Craig Demartino  32:10

This is a this is a young man's sport.

Craig Demartino  32:13

It's like damn there. Like our sons, his fingers don't ever hurt. He's like....

Kris Hampton  32:18

Yeah.

Craig Demartino  32:19

Why would my fingers hurt? I'm like, yeah, just wait.

Kris Hampton  32:21

Yeah. But and you know, it is a young man's sport, but it's also an old man sport. So.

Craig Demartino  32:25

It's an old. Yeah, I think it's a man, I think like the the more you climb, I've climbed for 30 years. Now, the more I climb, the more I look at it, and I go, God, there's so much I don't know. 

Kris Hampton  32:36

Oh, yeah, no doubt.

Craig Demartino  32:37

So much? You know. And I talked to a question like you, who knows training so well, and is able to apply that I'm just, I'm an awe that because I go damn, I don't know. any of that. Like, that is just amazing. 

Kris Hampton  32:48

But see, I think you do, I think, and that's why that's why I'm having this conversation with you now. Because I want to, you know, and I have these conversations with all sorts of people because I want to, I want to take what you're good at and learn from it, you know, because that's part of training that's part of progression in this sport is using your limitations. You know, and I think that's a super important thing for people if you know, you may not ever go into the gym and systematically train. But if you can stop making the excuse, and use that limitation, and turn it into a positive, then you're going to progress. And and that's why I'm trying to approach training from all those angles from using your limitations from, you know, talking to Carlos Traversi, about being short, but being this jumpy climber.

Craig Demartino  33:40

Right.

Kris Hampton  33:41

 You know and, you know, just, everybody's got something they're really good at. And I'm trying to find that.

Craig Demartino  33:47

And I keep telling I tell people this all the time, whether they're climber who got hurt, or there's just they just got hurt. I say, you're going to have limitations. They're going to tell you what they are. Right away. 

Kris Hampton  33:59

Yep. 

Craig Demartino  34:00

You can listen to it, and you can acknowledge it, but then you can throw it out the window too. And that's what I choose to do is I go, okay, there's my limitation, I understand that I understand that my leg doesn't work, I understand that I have all these problems. But if you really want to go do it, you just figure out a different way. And I think as climbers, we kind of gravitate towards what we're good at. Everybody does it. You know, I'm really good at pinching. So I'm just gonna do those problems. Sure. Well, I suck it, whatever. That's probably where I should be applying myself. And that came from the accident as well for me where I was like, You know what, my footwork sucks. I probably need to get better on my feet. So I forced myself to do that. And I think if we could all do that, look at that limitation and go, that's my weak spot. I probably should be there. But I think it's like you have that fear of failure. You don't want to look. I don't want to...

Kris Hampton  34:50

 Yeah it's terrifying.

Craig Demartino  34:51

I don't want to look stupid in front of the people.

Kris Hampton  34:53

We don't want to look bad. 

Craig Demartino  34:53

Yeah, you're like, I just want to be cool. Well, it's okay. I mean, it's like when I fall on the mats at the gym. Buddy laughs just like they laugh when somebody else falls like, you know, and we all make fun of each other. And it's that's what climbers do. And same with trying outside, it's like out. If I whip off something, you're like, Damn, I just, you know, there's that failure thing component in your brain where you're like, dang it, you know, I should have been able to do that. Well, maybe, maybe not. I don't know, maybe it's not your day. But I think that the fear of failure kind of left me more where I was like, you know what it's, it is what it is. And plus, nobody wants to laugh at a guy with one leg. I mean, that's horrible. You can't do that. You know, people are just more I think, in tune with, oh, he's sorting it out. And Cindy's watched me do it over the years now where she's just like, yeah, you just sort it out, figure it out. And then you make it work. And there's some routes I look at. I'm like, you know what, I may never be able to do that route. But...

Kris Hampton  35:48

Yeah. Have there been routes that you've tried at this point and failed on?

Craig Demartino  35:54

Yeah, there's one. There's one up in the park that I want to go back to called Rusty's pillars. And I did the first free ascent of it. And I went up and looked at it. 

Kris Hampton  36:05

Was that pre?

Craig Demartino  36:06

Pre accident? Yeah. So I went up there and looked at it. And I was like, man, I think that would be a bad idea. I'm just not sure. So not like one of the things I recognize as a limitation for me, and I think most climbers do is we don't want to take a big screaming fall into a bad landing. And this particular...

Kris Hampton  36:25

 I imagine that's particularly high on your list.

Craig Demartino  36:28

 It's high on my list. Yeah. So like high ball bouldering not super psyched on it now. I still do a bit of it, but like, I'm very picky about what I'm gonna do.

Kris Hampton  36:35

 Sure. 

Craig Demartino  36:36

Whereas this climb, it's got really, it's a hand crack up to a very smooth kind of, face-y thing that moves up these crystals, which is typical of Lumpy Ridge.

Kris Hampton  36:47

 Yeah. 

Craig Demartino  36:47

And it has one pre placed nut that I did on repel, put this nut in a hole. And I think that that would hold maybe, but it's a it's a brassy. So it's pretty. It's a number three bracey, actually. And I was like, man, if I rip that, and I take that ride, what's that gonna be like? And then I was like, I don't know that it's worth doing that and but that that climb always sits in the back of my brain, like, do you want to go do it? And I might just go, because I could throw a top rope on it and just see if I could actually do the moves.

Kris Hampton  37:15

Yeah, that's what I was gonna say. What about just top roping it.

Craig Demartino  37:18

Which is what I'm going up on. About three weeks with a buddy of mine from Denver, and I was like. I just want to, I just want to look, I don't, I'm not saying I'm going to send or anything. I'm just saying i'm curious. That's how I've done this whole, you know, trip is just like, I'm just curious. Well, like, what that's gonna be like, Can I do that? Can I not do that? It's like climbing on any stone. You're just like, maybe I can do the moves. Maybe I can't.

Kris Hampton  37:42

Yeah, and I think we put a little too much emphasis on shaming the top rope.

Craig Demartino  37:47

Oh, I know.Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  37:48

And the stick clip and the you know things like that I get looks from people at the read. Sometimes when I stick clip, the second bullet on something, you know, it might be 5.12. And I've climbed considerably harder than that. But, you know, I don't want to hit the ground if something goes wrong and something go wrong at any moment. 

Craig Demartino  38:06

Absolutely.

Kris Hampton  38:08

I'm totally okay with people looking at me funny for a top rope or whatever. 

Craig Demartino  38:12

And I'm like, man, if I'm trying to figure something out, I don't, especially on a trad line. It's like, you know, I'm gonna sort it out as good as I can before I commit to like, maybe getting hurt, cuz I don't want to get hurt. And like, like you said, something goes wrong all the time. I mean, that happens all the time. So rocks break and feet slip off, or whatever happens, you know, I mean, I was climbing at Veadawoo. And yeah, kicked my whole leg off once I almost killed my belayer. I was like, swung through and I was like, I yell, rock, cuz that was the first thing that came into my head. And he ducked and this thing just tomahawked right past them, I'm like, different like, like, What the hell was that? And I'm like, that was my foot. Could I have that back? And I mean, so 

Kris Hampton  38:54

New risks that you never thought of.

Craig Demartino  38:55

New risk man. Stuff stuff can happen. So yeah, I'm, I'm all about top rope. Stick clips. I mean, yeah, absolutely. 

Kris Hampton  39:02

Yeah. 

Craig Demartino  39:02

Love stick clips. Actually, our son just broke our stick clip. I almost cried. Oh, God, we got to get that fixed. 

Kris Hampton  39:08

Ground him.

Craig Demartino  39:09

That's right. That's right. Totally.

Kris Hampton  39:11

So speaking of your son and your kids, they were they were fairly young, when the accident happened.

Craig Demartino  39:18

2 and 4.

Kris Hampton  39:19

How much did being an example to them play into what you were doing? And I think it you know, it doesn't have to be family necessarily. It could be your climbing partners, or you're just the tribe in general. It definitely goes into my head to, to be an example.

Craig Demartino  39:37

Yeah, I think so initially, it was more just a survival thing. Like I got it. I gotta get through this because I don't want them to not have a dad, you know, I want to be functioning so that their understanding that I'm their dad.

Kris Hampton  39:51

 100%. 

Craig Demartino  39:52

So once I got to that initial, I guess just the holy shit clause. You're like, okay, now what? And so then it became more not that I thought, I want them to look at this and go, Wow, that's cool. My dad does that, because they've just always known me as this person with a missing leg and who's a climber? You know, that's what my dad does. I wanted them as, as, as I was doing things to just look at me and say, not that he overcame, because I'm not real huge on that word, but more that he did what he was passionate about, because that's really all we want them to do.

Kris Hampton  40:27

That you just kept going.

Craig Demartino  40:28

 Yeah, that, you know, you're gonna, you know, you're gonna hit bumps in the road, I mean, I hit a bump in the road, and you got it, you're gonna go around, or you're gonna let it bury you. And I went around it. And so you can do the same thing. I mean, anyone, no one's gonna skate through unharmed, you know, we all get tore up in some form. So emotionally, physically, whatever it is. And for me, it was both, you know, because when you get hurt, you have the emotional side, and you have the physical side, the physical side is actually I think, easier to heal.

Kris Hampton  40:57

Definitely.

Craig Demartino  40:57

 Because you just bolt it back together, you know, or in my case, you cut it off, and you move on. Whereas your brain doesn't shut down your brains just like oh, my gosh, what the heck just happened. And so I think you have to sort that out. And, and I wanted them to be able to look at me and say, you know what, he figured it out. And he continued down the path of what he was passionate about. And I think, if they do that in their life, then that makes me and Cindy very happy. Because then you know, it's a life well lived instead of just you know, and not that there's anything wrong with this, but like, you know, sitting in a cubicle, living in a subdivision, I mean, all those things that that are fine for some people, they just were never my passion.

Kris Hampton  41:38

Just not for you.

Craig Demartino  41:38

Just not for me. And same with Cindy. It's just not for her. And so we want them to embrace that more than anything. And obviously, we'd love to be a life outside, because that's what we think is great. I mean, climbing is is my mechanism to be outside. But it's mostly the draw to be outside is what keeps me there. So

Kris Hampton  41:57

Yeah, and I think that's cool. You know, I've, as a parent myself, I've always tried to parent by example. And that example doesn't have to be over the top, it doesn't have to be huge. Really, really what you want your kids to learn, or anyone who's watching you is that whatever setback it was didn't change you.

Craig Demartino  42:19

Right.

Kris Hampton  42:19

You're still the same person you were, and you're still gonna keep moving forward the way you are moving forward.

Craig Demartino  42:24

And I think that is something that the climbing tribe does really well, I think they watch you initially after an injury like mine, and they just want to see what's going to happen, just out of curiosity. But then, as it progresses, and as time passes by, they just want to see if you're the same person. And I always say I don't I don't want to be treated like a disabled climber. I don't want to be treated anything special. I just want to be treated like a climber just like anybody else. 

Kris Hampton  42:48

Yeah. And you definitely exemplify that at the crag. You know, when we've been, I've been at the crag around. If if you're wearing pants, and no one tells the people around though they would never know.

Craig Demartino  43:00

For sure. And that's how I've always wanted it to be. I just wanted to be the climber that I always was. And I think that you said something early on when we were chatting before we started about your daughter seeing both sides of things and and being able to see this very normal, quote unquote, life. Or this what I guess some people would say is like an alternative approach. Yeah, yours being the alternative, other people's being the more regular, I think it's really important to be able to say to your kids, these two things exist. 

Kris Hampton  43:31

Yeah. 

Craig Demartino  43:31

And you should know that.

Kris Hampton  43:32

Whichever one you choose is okay. 

Craig Demartino  43:34

And it might be a hybrid, I don't know. But if you you should know that that stuff's out there. Because if you then you if you don't, then I probably haven't done my job as a parent.

Kris Hampton  43:42

Right.

Craig Demartino  43:43

 Because I'm supposed to be educating you and showing you those things. So I think that then they can make up their own mind, which is, that's really cool to to see. But I think being able to show them the different aspects of life. That's super valuable.

Kris Hampton  43:57

Yeah, no doubt. So do you still, you know, you talked about having that the mental or the psychological, emotional challenges were tougher than the physical challenges. And it sounded like you, you know, you initially after the accident, worked through some of the emotional challenges. And then the physical challenges became sort of front and center.

Craig Demartino  44:20

 Yeah.

Kris Hampton  44:22

 Are you still having these emotional psychological challenges while you climb?

Craig Demartino  44:27

It depends, like I'll go a year with nothing like where I can just charge and be psyched. But every now and again, I'll be on a cliff somewhere and it'll be I couldn't even tell you why. It's just something hits me funny. And it's in it kind of rattles me to the core almost where I'm just like, I I shouldn't be climbing right now. And I'll just pack it in. I used to fight it. I used to be like, No, I'm not gonna back down. And then that just scared me more and it's not like a fear of it. More of sometimes I get this thing where I'm just like afraid I'm gonna get hurt again. Because that's like the worst nightmare for me. It's just like God, I don't ever want to get hurt that bad again. Yeah, and I broke my foot. Probably three years ago bouldering literally fell six inches off a boulder.I was feeling holds and popped off and hit a sharp rock and broke one of the outside bones on my on my real foot. And I was like, it didn't freak me out. But it did really make me concerned like God, you know, I break. That's right. I break pretty damn easy, too. And so some days every now and again, I'll just have this kind of not a flashback. But just like a very overpowering feeling of you shouldn't be here right now. And maybe you should go down and I go down. So it doesn't matter where I'm going doesn't matter what I'm doing. Cindy, I climb with Cindy most of the time anyway. And she knows she can see it when it happens. She's just like your whole personality changes. It's just like, I get kind of dark, and it just feels weird. And if I back off it the next day, it's usually gone, then I can get right back on whatever I was doing. But,...

Kris Hampton  46:04

That's pretty important.

Craig Demartino  46:05

Every now and again. Yeah, I think if you I think you I know guys who can push past that. And I am amazed by that.

Kris Hampton  46:13

I don't think there are things that you push past. But you're recognizing that this is one of those things you don't you shouldn't push past.

Craig Demartino  46:20

Right? Because you know, when you're like you pull on around you're you're nervous, like you're a little bit scared. 

Kris Hampton  46:25

Yeah.

Craig Demartino  46:25

That that's, I think really valuable actually, because it keeps you heightened. This is not that feeling this is more feeling of something's gonna go bad here. Like if you keep doing what you're doing, you need to get down. And so, you know, it's it's never been, it's never been where I like just lose my mind completely. It's more just like, this...

Kris Hampton  46:45

It's not a freak out.

Craig Demartino  46:46

Yeah, it's just this very powerful feeling of this is probably not what I should be doing today. And I'll just come off and go, we'll take a hike or whatever, go eat, drink coffee, whatever it is just, it's not climbing at that moment. They don't, I used to think, oh, that's going to get further and further apart. But that doesn't happen that way. It's kind of like, I had this nerve disorder that flares up every now and again. And so that I always think it's like the nerve disorder sort of the nerve disorder or never gives me a heads up. It's just like all of a sudden, boom, it hits me and it's with me for 24 hours and I can't walk. And then it's gone that quick. Like I take these drugs and then boom, it's gone. And so that feeling is the same way. It'll be there. And then all of a sudden, it's not. And I'm like, okay, right as rain, here we go. And then I can go back out and do whatever I was gonna do. So it's very, I wish I could kind of figure out what the trigger was because it's like a trigger something gets in my brain.

Kris Hampton  47:43

Do you think you listened to your, your body and your, you know, were you aware of yourself this much pre accident. 

Craig Demartino  47:50

So here's a here's a spooky one. When we walked out to the cliff, the day I got hurt.

Kris Hampton  47:56

Yeah.

Craig Demartino  47:56

 I had that feeling.

Kris Hampton  47:57

And you just ignored it.

Craig Demartino  47:57

 I was walking and I was like, No, I'm just nervous. I'm just nervous. Because I've not been on this route, too big route. This is we were gonna do this long, six pitch route first. And I was like, it's a big route. I'm just nervous. I'm gonna just swallow this. And I was climbing really bad. When I the first two pitches, I was climbing terrible. I was like super jerky and overgriping and everything and, and that feeling I get is the exact same feeling I had that day. And so I know somewhere in my brain, my brains, like, remember what happened. So you should be paying attention this not that I think I'm gonna get hurt like that again. But I also don't want to get hurt again. So I just, I've learned to like, okay, when I have that particular font, which is a very particular feeling. 

Kris Hampton  47:58

Yeah.

Craig Demartino  48:01

That's when I shut it down and just go, I'm gonna move on.

Kris Hampton  48:43

Yeah, and I think you know, I think that goes back to the most important part of all of this is just to be mindful of what you're doing.

Craig Demartino  48:52

Right.

Kris Hampton  48:53

 And to listen to your intuition, you know, and, you know, after the accident, your intuition was, I just need to get back to this, you know, and that's what you did. And when your intuition says, shouldn't be up here, you come down. And I think that's a pretty smart, pretty healthy, mature way to approach things.

Craig Demartino  49:13

And it's, it's like training. It's like when I train there are some days I can train hard.

Kris Hampton  49:18

Yeah, Exactly. Some days you need to rest.

Craig Demartino  49:19

 And then there's other days, yeah, you just go to open your car door and you're like, yeah, I guess I'm not gonna train today because I can barely push the button. So

Kris Hampton  49:28

Yeah, we think we use the hashtag we build machines. You know, but but I tell my people all the time, like you're not a robot, your not a machine. I mean, if if you're not feeling it, it's better off. Take a rest day and come back when you are feeling good.

Craig Demartino  49:43

Cuz you, you do you actually do good then.

Kris Hampton  49:45

Yeah.

Craig Demartino  49:45

You know, if you go in and just halfway kind of phone it in. That's usually when I get hurt anyway, that's when I tweak my fingers or my elbow or whatever, you know, whatever it is, you know.

Kris Hampton  49:55

I know you need to get your son somewhere. So 

Craig Demartino  49:56

No worries.

Kris Hampton  49:57

 I'll let you get to it. But I appreciate you inviting me in and absolutely hanging out for a while. And this is great. So 

Craig Demartino  50:04

My pleasure. Thank you for having me. 

Kris Hampton  50:05

I'll talk to you again some other time. 

Craig Demartino  50:06

Absolutely. 

Kris Hampton  50:06

All right. Thanks, Craig.

Craig Demartino  50:07

You bet. 

Kris Hampton  50:10

You know, this one was a really fun episode to listen back to and, and that happens to me pretty often because I get to have these great conversations. And then, you know, a month or two or three later, I listen back to it when I'm getting it ready to put out for you guys. And it really struck me again, how nonchalant Craig is about, you know, this, this situation that he found himself in that that could have stopped so many people from from moving on, and, and he didn't let it stop him. And he, he let it you know, catapult him further. And I think we can all really learn from that, you know, you can, you can find an excuse. Anytime you want one, you know, you're too short, you're too heavy or too average or too, whatever. You know, they're all excuses. And if you can use those things, use those limitations to propel you forward. I think that's that's where the money is. and Craig really exemplifies that. So thanks again, Craig, for letting me into your home and to hang out with your your kids and your wife, and just an amazing guy. And I really appreciate the opportunity to sit down and talk with him. And you know, maybe we'll do it again sometime. I would certainly love that. Like I said, Before, we got some new things coming. We've got some new podcast ideas coming at you very soon. Really, really excited about those. You'll be getting a devil's advocate episode about the Moon board pretty soon. I know some of you guys are 100% on board with the Moon board. I have some thoughts. Anyway. You know where you can find us. We're on the we're on the Facebook's and the Pinterest. And we're on the Instagrams and you should be sharing us on all those social medias. And since it's a new year, I'm gonna let my dude Ollie Simon take us out. Ollie what don't we do? 

Ollie Simon  52:20

We don't tweet, we scream like eagles.