For the sake of all that is good in humanity, listen to these two episodes in order. Every time an inconsiderate person listens out of order, the gods of climbing remove the obvious start holds from another undiscovered classic boulder. DON’T LET THIS HAPPEN!

In these episodes, Nate and I sit down to discuss the top 5 reasons why hangboarding is both overrated and important. Can it be both? Of course it can.

FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPTS:

EPISODE 143:

Kris Hampton  00:00

 What's up everybody, I'm your host, Kris Hampton.

Nate Drolet  00:01

And this is Nate Drolet.

Kris Hampton  00:02

And together we form pointer and middle. Otherwise known as first team.

Nate Drolet  00:04

I thought these were the two dogs from Where the Red Fern Grows for a second.

Nate Drolet  00:08

Hahaha

Nate Drolet  00:08

 I mean "pointer", that sort of was thing. I wasn't sure where 'middle" was going.

Kris Hampton  00:10

Haha yeah sounds like a dog.

Nate Drolet  00:11

Yeah. Where's this one from though?

Kris Hampton  00:13

It's from hangboarding.

Nate Drolet  00:13

Oh, pointer and middle. Jesus. Fuck. 

Nate Drolet  00:19

Haha you are blowing these left and right.

Nate Drolet  00:21

I was like, "This is some obscure hip hop group." Terrible names.

Kris Hampton  00:24

Oh man, pointer and middle. Hahahaha

Nate Drolet  01:10

Okay. That's a rough day. All right, what are we talking about today?

Kris Hampton  01:17

We're talking about hangboarding, and the top five reasons why hangboarding is overrated. And we just sort of had a little argument here, because you're like, "Well, it's overrated because it's popular." I'm like, "I know. That's why we're talking about it."

Nate Drolet  01:35

I feel like it's still worth saying.

Kris Hampton  01:36

Haha. It is. So we're saying. It is. It's popular. It's trendy. It's it's the thing to do, especially one arm hangs right now. We're gonna have a whole nother top 15 reasons why you shouldn't be hanging on one arm. And maybe some top reasons why you should. 

Nate Drolet  01:54

Yeah, 

Kris Hampton  01:54

But hangboarding is super popular, super trendy, and honestly kind of has been and has been growing since maybe before but I think it kind of reached its its new age of trendiness with the Rock Prodigy. 

Nate Drolet  02:14

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  02:15

And everybody was doing repeaters. 

Nate Drolet  02:18

Oh, yeah. 

Kris Hampton  02:18

Repeaters were the thing and they were the only way to get better. And why are you guys even bouldering in here? Like, this is a repeater room. 

Nate Drolet  02:25

Ha. A repeater room

Kris Hampton  02:26

That's, that's how it felt at the gym. And I think lately, Lattice has been doing a bunch of good work with getting people strong and a lot of that is based on the hangboard. And it's just gotten really, really popular and really trendy and frankly, I don't like it. Hahaha.

Nate Drolet  02:51

Yeah, I mean, it goes without saying there's a reason it's been popular. 

Kris Hampton  02:55

For sure. 

Nate Drolet  02:56

Hangboarding works. Finger strengths important. 

Kris Hampton  03:00

Yeah

Nate Drolet  03:01

As much as I like preaching that this is a skill sport, and things like that and that it is very mental, shit, man, strong fingers go a long way in this game. 

Kris Hampton  03:10

They do. And you know, you're probably listening to this on your pocket supercomputer. And you've probably already seen that at the same time as we released this episode, we released another, which is the antithesis of this episode, the top five reasons why you should be hangboarding. You know, so we we use the tool. We like the tool. But it is a tool. And it's not, it's not a cure all for everything. 

Nate Drolet  03:38

Panacea

Kris Hampton  03:39

Yes. So these are the top five reasons why hangboarding is overrated. Our number five is, it's just too damn easy to go past the minimum effective dose. And it's kind of funny, because one of the reasons I like hangboarding is because of its ease of use.

Nate Drolet  04:01

Before we go, you want to explain real quick what minimum effective dose is.

Kris Hampton  04:05

Good plan. Do that

Nate Drolet  04:07

 Oh, I'm doing it. 

Kris Hampton  04:08

Haha

Nate Drolet  04:08

So minimum effective dose is basically what is the least amount you need to do of something in order to get the result, the desired outcome.

Kris Hampton  04:19

Yeah. So super simple. 

Nate Drolet  04:22

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  04:22

 So you can, you could spend 100 hours doing it, but if you only need to spend 10 hours, that's 90 hours past the minimum effective dose. And like I was saying, one of the things I love about the hangboard is its ease of use. But that's also one of the things I don't like about it. It's too easy to take it overboard. You know, "I don't want to go to the gym tonight, so I'm just going to stay here and hangboard. It's all the same." And it's just really easy to keep it going and feel like you made gains. I need more gains.

Nate Drolet  04:57

Oh man and 

Kris Hampton  04:58

Gainzzz with three z's. 

Nate Drolet  04:59

So many gainzzzz. When you first hangboard it's amazing. Like you see immediate results. Like you come in the next week and your hands are stronger.

Kris Hampton  05:08

 Yeah

Nate Drolet  05:09

It's so cool. So it is, I mean, I've fallen for this, it's so easy to do more than you should, or more than just as necessary. I mean...and the thing is, you can do, you know, 15 hours a week of hangboard thing and it's going to be, you're probably going to get stronger than if you just did like 30 minutes. But, you know, there's a give and take.

Kris Hampton  05:32

Yeah. So I think we're going to run through this, these both kind of quickly, since we're putting two episodes out in the same day. But that's our number five. It's too easy to go past that minimum effective dose.

Nate Drolet  05:45

Yeah. Oh, one other thing just to add to it. Is that fingerboarding...and honestly, a lot of strength training in general, it should be viewed as supplemental strength.

Kris Hampton  05:55

Right

Nate Drolet  05:55

So these are things that supplement your climbing. And where this is a good transition into one of our later ones

Kris Hampton  06:03

Let me ask this actually. We're apparently going to spend a lot of time on these. Hahaha

Nate Drolet  06:09

"We'll make it short" haha

Kris Hampton  06:10

Is there a such thing as minimum effective dose for finger strength? If finger strength is one of the main components of climbing...why is there a minimum effective dose? Like why would I stop hangboard if I'm getting more finger strength?

Nate Drolet  06:28

Because there's so many things that go into climbing. 

Kris Hampton  06:30

Yeah

Nate Drolet  06:31

And, you know, if you only have so many hours, so much energy, you know, you have to allocate it accordingly. And this is one of the reasons why I think, when Eva Lopez put out a research paper and talked about the minimum edge and maximum added weight, and suggested this, like, this was a very simple template that was very time effective. 

Nate Drolet  06:52

And if nothing else, like to me, that's a really great minimum effective dose. It's max.... it's anywhere from three to five hangs, depending on how many weeks you're into it. But it's great. It's super quick. And a lot of people get a bunch of bang for their buck. Is it perfect? No. Does...can you do it forever? No.

Kris Hampton  06:52

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  07:10

But for but it is the best hangboard protocol. 

Nate Drolet  07:13

Yes, Eva says.

Kris Hampton  07:14

And you should listen to our episode on that, because it definitely is. Haha

Nate Drolet  07:17

Haha. Yes. Listen to the episode with Eva Lopez. But it's really great, because it doesn't take much input, but you get plenty out of it.

Kris Hampton  07:26

 Yeah. 

Nate Drolet  07:26

And you know, that's great. That's what we're looking for. If we can have these small investments and have a big outcome out of them, perfect. Like, as long as you're still moving the needle forward, then I say that's great. And that's, you know, that's a good way to go. Like, sometimes you might need to reallocate your time into different areas, depending on your strengths and weaknesses. But like this point said, it's really easy to go beyond minimum effective dose or even just.... yeah, like what is useful in our sport?

Kris Hampton  07:59

Yeah, you had a really, you were about to embark on this really elegant way to go into the next one before I tanked you. So do you remember how you were going to do that?

Nate Drolet  08:10

No, because I was gonna skip to number three.

Kris Hampton  08:12

Hahaha. Oh shit.

Nate Drolet  08:12

 I knew what I was doing and then I looked down and that's why I kind of paused and you like, cut in. It was good timing.

Kris Hampton  08:16

Haha. No, I think I think one of the reasons that people do go overboard with it is because of its measurability. And that's our number four, is that it's really measurable. That's attractive.

Nate Drolet  08:31

That's great, because rock climbing is not. Like grades are stupid. They're really weird. They're dependent on so many odd things.

Kris Hampton  08:38

Yeah, I mean, the gym I spent a lot of time climbing out in Cincinnati, Rockquest, put up a post today on Facebook. about "Do you prefer hard for the grade routes or soft for the grade routes?" and I'm like, "I don't know anybody who can tell the difference, so meh does it matter?"

Nate Drolet  08:57

Yeah, it you know, and that's just it. Like, no matter where you go, grades are silly, like indoors outdoors. 

Kris Hampton  09:02

Yeah. 

Nate Drolet  09:04

And people like, people will get upset over it. It can be circuits and people will be like "That's not a red boulder." You know? I mean, I do it too. Don't get me wrong. 

Kris Hampton  09:11

Haha. For sure

Nate Drolet  09:11

There's times I'm like, "Motherfuckers. Like, this isn't green. This is definitely red." Like, it's like it's such a silly thing. And what's not silly is being able to have recordable numbers that you can put down in an Excel spreadsheet and a journal. And you can say "I added two pounds today and like I haven't added any weight in two weeks, so this was a better day"

Kris Hampton  09:33

And because it's science, you can completely remove all of the other things like humidity and how much you slept and all of those things that might be contributing to how you didn't perform very well yesterday, but today, you suddenly got wildly stronger. And it can look like hangboarding made all the difference and that was the big measurable thing. You know, and honestly, like you said, grades aren't that measurable. Climbing isn't that measurable. And I think if you're a person who's predisposed to being really attracted to that measurability

Nate Drolet  10:14

Engineers, statisticians, number people in general

Kris Hampton  10:17

Yeah, then maybe what you need to be embracing to improve your climbing is the more nebulous side of it and trying to understand that a little better instead of just diving down this rabbit hole. I think can be helpful.

Nate Drolet  10:34

Yeah. You know, and this isn't to trash on measuring things at all.

Kris Hampton  10:38

 Engineers

Nate Drolet  10:39

Engineers. No, definitely not.

Kris Hampton  10:41

Haha

Nate Drolet  10:41

 Oh, no, like and man, I love talking to

Kris Hampton  10:43

But you can trash on statisticians, let's be honest here. 

Nate Drolet  10:46

Yes. Um, I don't even know what that means.

Kris Hampton  10:50

Haha

Nate Drolet  10:50

 But, you know, I love talking with people who are obsessed with measuring because they have really cool insights into things. 

Kris Hampton  10:57

Yeah.

Nate Drolet  10:58

 And I think the biggest warning we're trying to give right now is if you're the person that you already have multiple Excel spreadsheets for everything, and, you know, you have all these data, graphs and all that, sometimes it might be worth just taking a step back and saying, "Hey, like, am I putting too much value in this because I can track it? Or, you know, am I just taking it to the right, right degree?" Because there are plenty of people, they're amazing with numbers, they track things perfectly and they're great and you know, what, they're hitting the right minimum effective dose. And it's wonderful, that's great.

Kris Hampton  11:33

Totally

Nate Drolet  11:33

However, if also, if you're one of these people who you listen and you're like, "I don't track shit. I've never had kept a journal",  you're also one of those people that probably needs to be tracking things. 

Kris Hampton  11:41

Yeah and that's why, you know, you and I are people that really like to talk, practice, and mindset and process and all of that. And we've also got, Dale, our data guy, who is looking at all the numbers from the assessments and putting it all together and telling us what the numbers mean, and why we should be paying attention to certain numbers, because they're valuable.

Nate Drolet  12:09

yYeah, man. I think numbers are incredibly valuable.

Kris Hampton  12:13

But either one of the two can go too far.

Nate Drolet  12:16

 Totally you, you should be measuring things. You should be tracking things, keeping metrics. But yeah, like, one way or the other, like doing none of that or doing where everything has to be trackable, like you can drive yourself crazy.

Nate Drolet  12:31

Amazing combo

Kris Hampton  12:31

Yeah. And since this episode is basically, top five ways we can hate on hangboarding. For those people who really love the measurability of it, our number three reason....and this is exactly why you should embrace the more nebulous side of, of climbing....is that climbing is a skill sport. Whether you like it or not, no amount of finger strength is going to get get you up a route....get you up every route, if you don't know how to climb. You know, I mean, Dave Graham is one of the best technical climbers we've ever known. He also has incredible finger strength. So 

Kris Hampton  12:33

It's not a bad thing to have. 

Nate Drolet  12:43

Haha. Yeah

Kris Hampton  12:49

You know, but I know lots of people who have incredible finger strength who can't climb for shit and it shows. They're not climbing at Dave Graham's level.

Nate Drolet  13:28

Yeah, great climbers have great finger strength. But having great finger strength doesn't make you a great climber.

Kris Hampton  13:35

Right. And frankly, having great skills also doesn't make you a great climber.

Nate Drolet  13:40

 No

Kris Hampton  13:40

You know, you need you need both things. 

Nate Drolet  13:43

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  13:43

 But needing both means that one can't go too far.

Nate Drolet  13:46

Totally. And actually, there's something kind of cool. So Will Anglin recently put out a blog post called "Hangboarding Away." And great kind of talked on his philosophy on hangboarding and training and a lot of different things. And he posted it to Reddit. And there were a bunch of back and forth. Some really cool dialogue. And one thing that he talked about was he before his trip to Switzerland in early winter, early 2019 had really dove into getting strong. Like he pushed his numbers really hard, hangboarding, campusing, things like that. And I remember talking with him before he went he was just like, "Dude, I feel so strong. I am smashing"

Kris Hampton  14:27

Oh yeah, like, I got a text from him about it. 

Nate Drolet  14:30

Yeah. And he went to Switzerland, and I didn't hear much about it. And then it wasn't until actually reading this blog that.... or not the blog, but him on Reddit and he was just like, "Yeah, like, I put my head down and I really like chased those numbers. And when I went, for the first time in my life, I was just owning holds, but I wasn't finding the positions."

Kris Hampton  14:52

 Yeah

Nate Drolet  14:52

 "I was trying to, like overpower everything. Because I had, you know, pulled back my climbing a little bit to really ramp these numbers up." And his strength had gone up so quickly that he didn't know how to apply it well.

Kris Hampton  15:04

yeah, Steve Maisch said the same exact thing in one of the podcast episodes with him. 

Nate Drolet  15:10

Yeah

Kris Hampton  15:10

That Lattice had told him his finger strength was shit. And he made his finger strength much, much better and he went on a trip and just couldn't move between the holds. He said he could hold everything, but couldn't move between them.

Nate Drolet  15:24

Yeah, so kind of chasing one thing so far that, you know, you leave the other things behind. So taking any you know, it's like anything, we don't want to take things to an extreme.

Kris Hampton  15:34

Yeah, and I don't think you know, I've heard people say that if you get too strong, your technique falls apart or something, you know, and that's utter nonsense. That's totally not true. Where they get that from is because the people who are getting strong, are taking it too far and they're only focused on that. And they're forgetting that climbing is a skill sport, so having a healthy balance of both strength and skill is really, really important.

Nate Drolet  16:05

Yeah, it's, you know, we've talked about this before, but this idea of currency, like how current are your skills? Yeah. Like, you can be an amazing climber with like, you know......good example, when I was in Smith a few years ago, Mark Anderson was there. He had just climbed Shadowboxing and he came out and he wanted to do Just Do It. So a full letter grade below what he had just climbed. He came out, he had two weeks, and I saw him in his last day. And I was like, you know, like, "Hey, how's it going?" This was the first time we met. And we talked about it, he was like, "Yeah, I had a really hard time." Like, he was like, "I came back, I underestimated how intense the footwork is here. I completely forgot." And this is a guy who's climbed To Bolt or Not to Be.

Kris Hampton  16:46

Right 

Nate Drolet  16:47

And Mark Anderson's climbed a lot of the most hard technical sport climbs

Kris Hampton  16:50

He's a brilliant, technical rock climber.

Nate Drolet  16:52

Amazing, like one of the best in the nation. But this was a, this was different, like climbing and Smith was different. And he was like, "Yeah, like, I didn't give enough respect to using the bad feet here in this style. And I rushed in a little too fast." And so for him his currency in that style, even though he was the fittest he'd ever been in his life, you know, it just wasn't quite there.

Kris Hampton  17:14

Yep. He needed needed to brush up on the skills a little bit. 

Nate Drolet  17:18

Yeah

Kris Hampton  17:18

And I think we all make that mistake. 

Nate Drolet  17:20

Oh, totally. 

Kris Hampton  17:21

Um, you know, there are times when I'm diving deeper down the strength rabbit hole, like I am right now. And there are times like, you know, much of the last several training seasons, that I've dived deeper down the skill rabbit hole. The important thing is, you're just trying to spend more time working on what you need. And climbing is a skill sport, so don't forget about it.

Nate Drolet  17:44

 Yeah. And finding that balance. Like because even if you are focusing on skill, you should still be getting stronger. 

Kris Hampton  17:45

Yeah. 

Nate Drolet  17:47

Or if you're trying to get stronger, still make sure you're keeping current with your skills.

Kris Hampton  17:54

Yeah, and climbing...climbing is also important for your finger strength. I mean, it's how your... how you use it, frankly. So finger strength is nothing if you don't know how to apply it. And that's our number two is that you can gain finger strength elsewhere, through climbing, through bouldering. I hear lots of people, and this is one of my biggest pet peeves is hearing people say that "You shouldn't be just bouldering in this training plan. You should also be hangboarding because you need finger strength." Well, if a person is starting from a really low level of finger strength, and they're spending time bouldering, ther fingers are going to get stronger.

Nate Drolet  18:39

 Yeah

Kris Hampton  18:40

Even a an intermediate or advanced level of finger strength, you've still got quite a bit of room to grow that you can get through bouldering. It is not quite as measurable. It's not nearly as measurable. But it can happen. Lots of boulderers...I don't know how many times Fred Nicole has been on hangboard, but probably less than a lot of 5.11 climbers I know. And I'm guessing Fred's finger strength is better than 5.11 level. You know, he got it through bouldering and trying to pull on little tiny holds over and over and over, which sounds really similar to hangboarding frankly.

Nate Drolet  19:22

Yeah. And I think, you know, and this kind of pairs well with the whole minimum effective dose, because a little bit hangboard is great. It's wonderful, and it's supplemental. But you can get fucking diesel hands, just by trying really hard on climbs. And I think for a lot of people, hangboarding can be kind of an escape from trying hard. And this is like, not many people want to admit this. But you look at the people who get really strong hands without hanging and without campus boarding and the thing they all have in common and it's not just like simply genetics. It's man they can try really, really hard.

Kris Hampton  19:59

Yeah. BJ Tilden is a great example. He can try really, really hard. He's got really fucking strong hands. And he doesn't hangboard. Why? He has no reason to. He got really strong fingers through climbing. 

Nate Drolet  20:14

Yeah, like trying short, hard climbs that are really aggressive, making sure you're well rested so that you can give good efforts. Like there are a lot of things you can do to really improve your hand strength through climbing. And that's something that I yeah, I think gets missed out on a lot.

Kris Hampton  20:31

Yeah, and frankly, you know, if you're someone like a Red River climber who... you aren't gaining tons of finger strength. Once you're at the 5.12, 53 level, you're not going to gain a lot of finger strength climbing at the Red. And honestly, I would, instead of just putting you straight onto a hangboard, if you have the time and energy to put toward it, I would rather see you bouldering and learning to do more powerful moves, grab and use smaller holds, do big pulls between smaller holds, instead of just learning to hang on bad holds.

Nate Drolet  21:08

Yeah. And I mean, if we're really going to dive into it, if we are looking at specificity...the hangboard is really not that specific. 

Kris Hampton  21:15

Yeah. 

Nate Drolet  21:15

Like, yes, it's much more specific than like a gripper or rice bucketing or barbell finger rolls. But you're pulling on completely statically, very slowly, in this fixed position. Both your hands are like pronated, like, and like everything's lined up perfectly. You know, and then you're just hanging there for like, 10 seconds. Like you're not pulling with your arms or anything. It is nothing like climbing

Kris Hampton  21:39

Right

Nate Drolet  21:39

 Like, yes, it uses your fingers. It, it kind of stops there. And this is one thing that I do like about one arm one arm hangs or a couple other things, because you start to get a little more specific. But uh, yeah, like, climbing is the most specific thing you can do when it comes to getting better at climbing. 

Kris Hampton  21:57

Absolutely

Nate Drolet  21:58

Like hard limit bouldering, like, a few really hard moves, lots of rest, like you're going to get a lot more out of that and more direct transfer, then you are from hangboarding.

Kris Hampton  22:09

Yeah, actually, you know, you and I went bouldering this morning, on one of my big projects right now, The Giving Tree. And while there, I was thinking, "Man, instead of hangboarding before I come here, I should just pull into these positions, and try to hold these positions isometrically you know, for eight seconds. If I could hold some of those tension positions for eight seconds, I can damn damn well do the boulder." Because I'm trying to get in and out of those positions as fast as possible and that's going to be way more specific for my needs on this boulder than hanging on a hangboard. 

Nate Drolet  22:50

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  22:51

So and, you know, our number one and this one is especially dangerous, I think snd I see it happening a lot today. I see it on the internet a lot.

Nate Drolet  23:05

I've fallen for it for sure. 

Kris Hampton  23:07

Yeah, that finger strength becomes the end goal or the primary asset that you rely on. And, and all of these things sort of lead into this. They all bleed into each other. But the goal is to climb better, you know or to climb harder, however you want to look at it.

Nate Drolet  23:30

Big numbers. That's what I'm going for.

Kris Hampton  23:32

 Goal is to win on 8a.nu

Nate Drolet  23:35

 Yeah

Kris Hampton  23:36

That's the goal. And and you have to... like Dan John, another former podcast guest, said, "The goal is to keep the goal, the goal." And if climbing better is the goal, then finger strength can't be the end goal. But a lot of people make it that way.

Nate Drolet  23:55

Yeah. It's a wonderful tool, man. It's a great side goal of saying like, "I want my fingers stronger."

Kris Hampton  24:01

 Yeah.

Nate Drolet  24:01

 To me how this manifests and this is something I've fallen for is you know, let's say I do some hangs like some hanging. I go through a round of it or I just focus on climbing and getting my hands really strong. And then I have some success. 

Kris Hampton  24:15

Yeah

Nate Drolet  24:15

. And I go out and I send

Kris Hampton  24:16

Because you've already got good skills. 

Nate Drolet  24:21

Eh....um, hopefully. But let's say I have like great success from that. And then I go out and I try another project and I fail. My immediate... and this happened to me, it's happened to me like multiple times i I'll be like, "Oh, my hands aren't as strong. They aren't strong enough."

Kris Hampton  24:34

 "I need stronger hands." 

Nate Drolet  24:35

It's so easy. I mean, our hands are right in front of our eyes. They're really close to our brain. 

Kris Hampton  24:38

And you're staring at them when you fell off, because that's what we all do.

Nate Drolet  24:41

Yeah. I fall, stare at my hands. I'm like, "Why did you let me down?"

Kris Hampton  24:44

"You failed me"

Nate Drolet  24:45

"You failed me again." It's so it's such an easy trap to say, "My hands just aren't strong enough." And you know, as we're talking today when I was at the boulder, about I like one thing I think is was really cool when I was a newer climber, like even up through like my first like five and six years, I always saw climbing as a puzzle. 

Kris Hampton  25:09

Yeah.

Nate Drolet  25:10

 And I wish I would have learned about finger training, like fingerboarding and physical training earlier. That's something I wish I could have found the minimum effective dose sooner and supplemented that in. But to me, it was always a puzzle. It was "What can I do different? How can I change? How can I climb better to solve these problems?" And, you know, I even chased that to an extreme to some degree. But now it's so easy, like, for a while my initial go to a lot of times, was like "I'm not strong enough, like my hands just can't hold this or I need more core tension." And, you know, I kind of lost sight of "How do I do this better? Like, how, what are the positions I need to be in? Like, how can I change my breathing, my pace, my tension, my speed, all these different things?"

Kris Hampton  25:55

Yeah, you know, a lot of that's because of the measurability of it. Yeah, it's really easy to go straight back to that and be like, "Okay, I'm at this number here. I need to get to this number to improve these V grades", you know, and it's a trap, man. 

Nate Drolet  26:12

Yeah, I mean, look, I'll say this right now. If I took the holds off of any of my projects all across the world, and replaced them all with jugs, I'd send all of them. 

Kris Hampton  26:23

Yeah

Nate Drolet  26:24

Which I could easily then say, "Well, that means if I have stronger fingers, I'll send everything in the world." But there's an upper limit, and we can only develop fingers so fast. 

Kris Hampton  26:33

Yep. 

Nate Drolet  26:34

And you know, we should be. Like, we should definitely be continuing to build this strength. But it's so easy to make that like, "I get better because my hands get stronger." It's so easy to get in that mindset and it's dangerous.

Kris Hampton  26:46

Yeah. I mean, there's lots of lots of coaches, lots of trainers, lots of people saying, You should always be hangboarding. It should always be a part of what you're doing." And honestly, I just don't believe that. You know, if, if I'm, if I'm in a phase where my finger strength is more than adequate for my goals, and I'm spending time on hard boulders that are stressing my fingers, not allowing the, you know, that my finger strength to regress the way that that people think of when they gasp, and go "Oh my god, you're not hangboarding right now? You know, your finger strength is dying as we speak." That's not happening if you're still pulling on bad holds and pulling hard on them. So I just don't believe that that's a thing, you know. So I don't allow finger strength or hangboarding to become my end goal. Or my it's never been my primary asset, so I don't I don't run that risk. But I know lots of people who do.

Nate Drolet  27:51

Yeah, no, it's, I mean, like I said, it's an easy trap. I've, because I spent a full year chasing finger strength. And in a way, it was really cool. I got got really strong with it. But man, I lost a lot of skills along the way. And it definitely left like it shifted my mindset for a few years of it was always like, "Oh, like, well, what if I just like, keep chasing finger strength?"

Kris Hampton  28:16

Yeah. 

Nate Drolet  28:17

So yeah, that's

Kris Hampton  28:20

Trap. You want to run through them real quick?

Nate Drolet  28:23

Yeah. So number five was overdoing the minimum effective dose. Number four was measurability is intoxicating. Number three, climbing is a skill sport. Number two, you can get strong from climbing. And number one, finger strength becomes the primary goal or primary mover for improvement.

Kris Hampton  28:47

Yep. And those are our top five reasons why hangboard is overrated. And you know what I'm not going to do right now? I'm not going to do the normal sign off. Some of you are very happy about that because you're very angry about me always calling this red tailed hawk an eagle. Well, to hell with you. You don't know how that red tailed hawk identifies. Maybe she or he, or whatever it is, thinks that it's an eagle. You don't know. But I'm not going to do that sign off because we've got another episode and you should go listen to that one right now. 

EPISODE 144:

Kris Hampton  00:31

 What's up everybody, I'm your host, Kris Hampton.

Nate Drolet  00:35

And this is Nate Drolet.

Kris Hampton  00:36

And together we form ring and pinky.

Nate Drolet  00:40

I know this one.

Kris Hampton  00:41

Haha. I was gonna go middle and ring because that's really the team I like. But ring and pinky is an exciting combo.4

Nate Drolet  00:52

 C team.

Kris Hampton  00:53

Yeah. So we are an exciting combo. I'm going to go ahead and say this right now, if you haven't listened to the episode preceding this one, if you're listening out of order, then you're fired. Go back and listen to the Top Five Reasons Why Hangboarding is Overrated episode first, and then come to this one. And that will make your life much happier. 

Nate Drolet  01:22

Really? 

Kris Hampton  01:22

No, but it sounded good. 

Nate Drolet  01:25

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  01:25

Haha. All right. So this is our top five reasons why you should use the hangboard. We're not we're not total haters of everything.

Nate Drolet  01:36

No

Kris Hampton  01:36

Even though I play one on television. I actually do use a hangboard quite a bit. And over the years, I've used it a lot. I've spent a lot of time on hangboard

Nate Drolet  01:49

Yeah, we were just looking at your Moon fingerboard. 

Kris Hampton  01:51

Yeah. 

Nate Drolet  01:52

All the texture is gone on those crimps.

Kris Hampton  01:53

Haha. Yeah. I spent a lot of time hanging on those crimps. 

Nate Drolet  01:57

Yeah, for good reason. 

Kris Hampton  01:59

Yeah, totally. And and I think they're, you know, it was...there are lots of reasons why you should use a hangboard. These are our top five. And the number five reason is kind of a newer idea, I would say. And that's for recruitment. And what I mean by that is like, for instance, in this Red River Pump Prep program that I'm doing with Dru Mack...., that's still kind of hard to say.... that Dru Mack and I put together and we're having people do. There's not a lot of hangboarding in it. But there is a little bit. There are a few max hangs right before you go limit bouldering. And several people have asked about that, like, "Are four or five hangs enough? Like, why even do them?" And my reasoning is because A) Red River Gorge doesn't require a ton of finger strength. So we're going to get a lot of that through hard bouldering. And B) I want you to be able to access your hard bouldering. I want you to be able to pull really hard. I want you to be ready to try. And a good way to do that is to do a couple really maximal hangs, and then move on to boulders. And recently people have been doing it outside with the Tension Flashboard. So I think that's a really great use for hangboard, frankly,

Nate Drolet  03:29

Oh, yeah. And this is something that, you know, I wrote about called "Too Easy to Fail", I think was what it was, a blog post. 

Kris Hampton  03:38

Yep. 

Nate Drolet  03:40

And without knowing what recruit recruitment was at the time really, this idea of like recruiting your finger strength and getting everything firing in your forearms, so you can then be more effectively use them. I really wanted to just, I wanted to hangboard. I was just terrible at measuring things and I hated it. It was the worst. So I was like, "What can I do where I'm guaranteed to succeed?" Like, there's no way I'll give up on this. So like I'll just do two really hard hangs every time I go into the gym, and I'm trying hard. So like, I don't know, three, sometimes four days a week, I'd go in warm up for like half hour, 45 minutes. Go do two really hard hangs on the smallest edge I could hang. And then I'd go on with the rest of my day. And my hands got really strong over the next couple of months, just doing that.

Kris Hampton  04:26

Yeah, totally. 

Nate Drolet  04:27

And it's funny, because I've told, I mean, I wrote a blog about it. I've told a bunch of people. And one really common reaction...a lot of people were like, "Eell, that's not enough time under tension" or it's not, "It can't be enough hangs to get stronger." And you know, my response forever was like, "Well, I don't know what the mechanism is, but like my hands kept getting stronger, like and I could grab smaller holds." And really what was happening was I was just recruiting my finger strength.

Kris Hampton  04:52

And your nervous system is ramping up, because it needs to, you know. And that's something Eva and I talked about in my episode with her, the differences between neural and structural hangs and where you should place them in a workout to be most effective. And these types of maximal hangs are very much getting your nervous system fired up snd that's a good thing when you're going to be trying hard.

Nate Drolet  05:20

Yeah, so I was kind of getting my hands, I was getting my hands ready to really grab small holds. Also, I was probably getting them used to the pain because I was hanging on like a really small sharp edge.

Kris Hampton  05:31

Totally

Nate Drolet  05:31

 But yeah, I just did two hangs, like doing two hangs a day for a couple months, and hands just kept getting stronger. So it was great. And it's something I still do when I go out bouldering. I keep my Flash Board with me, I'll hang it up. And I like to do, you know, like two, three hangs, just because..... also, like, if you're trying to warm up for your project, you might not always have 

Kris Hampton  05:57

Very often 

Nate Drolet  05:58

Perfect, tiny little crimps that you can controllably pull on, like load your fingers exactly how you want them. So this is just a nice way to get your fingers ready, so you can go project. And it's really time effective.

Kris Hampton  06:09

Yeah, yeah, I like that. I like that method a lot. And and that made our list. I mean, I think that's a big one. 

Nate Drolet  06:15

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  06:16

 And then the number four reason to use a hangboard is also one of our, one of the dangers, because it's really measurable. It's in a in a sport where not much is measurable. You know, we've made up these, these grade systems that are vaguely measurable. But hangboarding is extremely measurable, especially if it's in a climate controlled space of any kind. You know, doesn't have to be this, you know, laboratory climate control

Nate Drolet  06:55

Hermetically sealed.

Kris Hampton  06:56

Yeah, exactly, if, but if you're hanging in the same location with roughly the same humidity, you know, hangboards are super measurable. And that's, that's a really great way to progress.

Nate Drolet  07:07

Yeah, like, it's, it is important to measure things like otherwise, you're just kind of shooting in the dark. So it's very important that you measure your progress in different ways in climbing. And one good way to measure progress is with a hangboard. You can say, you know, "This time last year, I was on this edge with bodyweight. This year, I'm at plus 20 pounds." Yeah, cool. Like, that's awesome. And by keeping these measurements, you can see that progression. There are a lot of different grip types you can train with hangboarding, so there are a lot of different things. And so the measurability of that is really important in a sport that can be very nebulous, very vague. So yeah, I mean, I think it's, it's awesome.

Kris Hampton  07:48

Yeah. And like you mentioned in the last episode, you can, you can make progress during what seems like a plateau, if you just look at it on paper. And a really good way to be able to measure that and, and see "Is my training plan pushing me in the right direction?" is using a hangboard to keep consistent measurements. You know, in in all of our assessments....not at all, but in a lot of our assessments, we use a hangboard as one of the main tools, because it's something that everybody has access to, nearly everybody who's contacting us to train.

Nate Drolet  08:32

You know, another thing that's really great about it is, let's say you want to dedicate more time to climbing. You can use the hangboard, maybe check in once every two weeks, and just see like, "Where's my finger strength that?" So, you know, you might even be surprised like a lot of people, if they're out there trying really hard on hard boulders or maybe even hard routes, they may keep coming back every two weeks and be like, "Oh, my hands are actually getting stronger."

Kris Hampton  08:56

 Yeah.

Nate Drolet  08:56

 Or maybe they're like, "Well, my hands aren't getting weaker while I'm doing this, so that's cool." 

Kris Hampton  09:02

Yeah, and if you're a Red River climber and you don't hangboard all season, you might see that your hangboard numbers drop off the bottom of the chart dramatically. Haha

Nate Drolet  09:11

Suddenly, you don't hang on the holds haha. But yeah, measurability, it's like...it is, in this sport, hangboarding is the pretty much the lowest hanging fruit that I can think of as far as measurable gains.

Kris Hampton  09:23

Yeah, totally. And you know that measurability of it leads right into our number three, which is it's a fucking fantastic tool for rehab situations. 

Nate Drolet  09:34

Yes

Kris Hampton  09:34

If you're a climber, you're going to get a finger injury at some time. If you're trying even moderately hard, someday you're going to injure your finger in some way. And I've heard so many people that it drives me crazy say, "Oh, God, don't go anywhere near hangboard when you've got an injured finger". You know, I hear my clients all the time will be like, "Oh, you know, my finger feels tweaked, so I'm skipping hangboarding. I'm just going to boulder." I'm like, "That's the opposite. I want you to go and hangboard "

Nate Drolet  10:06

Yeah

Kris Hampton  10:06

You know, if you're if you've got a tweaked finger, an injured tendon or pulley or whatever, the best protocol for rehabbing it is measurable progressions. 

Nate Drolet  10:18

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  10:18

And a hangboard is the best way to do that. 

Nate Drolet  10:20

Yeah. Because if you have an injury, and you're trying, like, you know, obviously, go to physical therapist, first find someone who to work with. But once you get cleared to start having.... to be able to stress it again, that's what you're looking for is a gradual increase in load. 

Kris Hampton  10:34

Yep. 

Nate Drolet  10:34

So the wonderful thing about hangboarding is you can start by saying, "Okay, like I had to take 20 pounds off. I can hang this edge. And maybe I have mild discomfort", or, you know, "I'm just on the edge of having some mild discomfort." And you can keep slowly using less and less weight until eventually, you might say, "Oh, I'm at plus 20 pounds with that same level of discomfort." So you've just gone 40 pounds, like of improvement. And because it's very controlled, it's incredibly measurable. It's a great tool.

Kris Hampton  11:05

And I'm lumping no-hang devices in here too

Nate Drolet  11:07

For sure. And that's what I've always used for anytime I'm rehabbing something, or if I like dealing with a slight tweak.

Kris Hampton  11:15

I mean, when you were injured this last time after Hueco, what weight did you start at holding on your Tension Block? 

Nate Drolet  11:24

Two and a half pounds

Kris Hampton  11:25

 Two and a half pounds, right. I think when I had my last finger injury, I started with a Nalgene that was like quarter full of water. And that's all I could hold with a flexed finger without without major pain. Yeah, you know, and gradually over the course of a few weeks, I was holding two full Nalgenes, thrn three full Nalgenes, and then I could hang on it. So I just kept progressing from there. So

Nate Drolet  11:51

Yeah, just gradual loading. And, man hangboarding is wonderful for that. Same thing with like, the Tension Block like a no-hang device. 

Kris Hampton  11:58

It's safer. It's safer people. 

Nate Drolet  12:00

Yeah. I mean, it makes sense. Like you can pull on in complete control. You're not moving, you're not shifting.

Kris Hampton  12:07

Yeah, you know, risking your feet blowing off and overloading your finger suddenly

Nate Drolet  12:11

Yep. 

Kris Hampton  12:12

You know, there's all sorts of things that could go wrong if you're just bouldering. I mean, you might know. You might have all the good intentions on the planet, and pull onto this boulder and say, "Oh, well, you know that that hold looks like it might be a little tweaky. I'm not so sure about it. I'll see what it feels like when I get there." But then you're in flash mode, because you just made it through the crux moves, and you're like, "Fuck it, I'm pulling", you know, and then you're going to hurt yourself. And if you just avoid that altogether, and spend time rehabbing on a tool that's really easily measurable, like hangboard, or no hang device, you're much safer than if you're just going bouldering with your finger injury. 

Nate Drolet  12:56

And I would also say, in regards to safety, if you're trying to develop a new grip for you, this can be a wonderful way to do it. Like because you can take weight off, let's say, I don't know, you have to do like ring finger monos for some horrible reason.

Kris Hampton  13:09

I have a ton of people do front three and back three,

Nate Drolet  13:12

I was gonna say 

Kris Hampton  13:13

Lots of people have a really hard time just hanging off three fingers. 

Kris Hampton  13:17

They're like " This feels tweaky to hang off, off, you know, just three fingers." And I'm like, "That's exactly why we're doing it. Because I don't want you to be on a boulder and have your pinky pop off and then strain your fingers because your pinky popped off. I'd rather get you strong here where we can gradually progress."

Nate Drolet  13:17

Yeah

Nate Drolet  13:33

Exactly. And so I like that's something that I'm a huge believer in is developing a wide array of grip styles, just so that you can be more you can have more robust hands.

Kris Hampton  13:45

Except for having your pinky on. That's pointless. 

Nate Drolet  13:47

Those are worthless......<<whispers>>> Use your pinkies...... So it's a great way to develop new grip styles as well, in a safe way.

Kris Hampton  13:55

Yeah. And our number two and this is a big one. You know, lots of people we work with are like, "I don't have access to climbing gym." Like, okay, if you don't have a hangboard, what the hell are you going to do? 

Nate Drolet  14:10

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  14:11

And so either time, because it can be really time efficient or space, if you live in a little apartment, can't go to a climbing gym. All you've got space for is a hangboard. Or location. You know, maybe you don't have a climbing gym available. Believe it or not, there's still places in the country where you have to drive an hour or more to get to a climbing gym, so having a hangboard can be a really massive benefit.

Nate Drolet  14:42

Yeah, no. Yeah, it's one of those things that a lot of people can....I  took it for granted forever. So when I lived in Chattanooga, I was walking distance from TBA

Kris Hampton  14:54

 Sure. 

Nate Drolet  14:54

So like I had a hangboard but I really just used it for warming up before I went outside. There was no....I never had the need. But like since then there's been plenty of times where I just don't have access. Like, I either don't have access to a climbing gym, or it might be an hour's drive with traffic to get to a gym, you know, maybe an hour back, something like that. And it's like, "Oh, like, I can just knock out a hangboard workout in the next 45 minutes, like a quality workout, and then get a rest day in and then I can climb two days from now."

Kris Hampton  15:27

Yeah, and when I was when I was training to climb 5.14, when that was my big goal, I knew I needed more training time that I had. And I knew I needed to train at a time when I had more energy because I was working a full time job painting murals and I was trying to do my climbing sessions after that. And being on a fucking ladder all day, looking at a ceiling, you know, with your right arm raised above your head for eight hours is not conducive to a really great training situation. So I spent a lot of mornings, I would get up at 5am and do a hangboard session before I went to work. And having that availability was massive for me. So I think that's....I mean, if that's a lot of people's number one.

Nate Drolet  16:20

Yeah. Exactly like what you were just saying with your own like, you can have these snack sized workouts. You can just kind of 

Kris Hampton  16:28

Big snacks.

Nate Drolet  16:28

 Big snacks. 

Kris Hampton  16:29

Hahah

Nate Drolet  16:29

Yeah. Like the whole sleeve of Oreo kind of snacks. I don't know why that...

Kris Hampton  16:36

Oreos sound good right now. 

Nate Drolet  16:37

I was just thinking that why is that not just like the actual serving size? Like, I need sleeves. I need it by the sleeve. Don't tell me it's two Oreos. Get out of here.

Kris Hampton  16:44

Hahaha. Serving size: one sleeve

Nate Drolet  16:46

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  16:47

It's super important.

Nate Drolet  16:48

Yeah, yeah like these snack size workouts you can get in. Because you can do like strength endurance, power endurance, like all these different things, on a hangboard and yeah, it's great for that. Also, it's useful kind of fitting in with this, if you have another injury. Like let's say you broke a leg. 

Kris Hampton  17:06

Yeah. 

Nate Drolet  17:07

Man, like this is a great way like never waste an injury. Plenty of people have, you know, broken an ankle, broken a leg only to come back way stronger because they spent their time hanging off a board.

Kris Hampton  17:20

Yep. And then those people need to go listen to the other episode right away, because they don't need to hangboard anymore, for the moment. 

Nate Drolet  17:27

Yeah. Hopefully they're just chomping at the bit to go rock climb. 

Kris Hampton  17:30

Yeah totally. And our number one reason is kind of a "Duh!" reason but, finger strength or, you know, finger strength, endurance or whatever it is your training on it. As long as...... I shouldn't say "Whatever it is you're training on it" because there's some things that just aren't as easily trainable on a hangboard. But but for the things it's really accepted for 

Nate Drolet  17:56

Alpinism

Kris Hampton  17:56

Alpinism would be hard to train on the hangboard. 

Nate Drolet  17:58

But it would probably be more fun on a hangboard 

Kris Hampton  18:00

We did in.... at a gym in Cincinnati, Climb Time, where I started climbing at, Ray and I

Nate Drolet  18:06

Oh no

Kris Hampton  18:07

Had taken a hangboard, the station where the hangboard was, it had a perfect four inch crack in between the two hangboard and we offwidth trained there.

Nate Drolet  18:18

That's awful. 

Kris Hampton  18:18

Yeah, it's pretty great.

Nate Drolet  18:19

 There's no such thing as a perfect 4 inch crack.

Kris Hampton  18:23

But I mean finger strength and strength endurance. So max hangs, repeaters, those two workouts are really widely accepted as beneficial and valuable. And as far as your fingers go, there's not a better way to train those things.

Nate Drolet  18:41

Yeah, it's, it's effective. It's efficient. It gets the job done. You know, in rock climbing, we gotta grip some grabs. Like the stronger your hands are, stronger your forearms are like, the better off you're going to be.

Kris Hampton  18:52

 Oh, yeah, it's factual. I mean, if the holds feel like jugs, then you'll pull them like jugs and you'll climb like they are jugs. And that's great.

Nate Drolet  19:02

Yeah, like I've never thought "Man, it's a shame my hands are so strong right now."

Kris Hampton  19:08

Haha

Nate Drolet  19:11

 Yeah, if you're still climbing plenty, like adding finger strength, it's a plus.

Kris Hampton  19:18

 Yep. 

Nate Drolet  19:18

So yeah. Hangboarding, a great way to get stronger.

Kris Hampton  19:21

Yeah, kind of a kind of a "Duh" reason. Yeah, you guys already sort of knew that, but that's the best reason to use it. You know, who who had the...who made the first hangboard? Do you know? 

Kris Hampton  19:34

The guy from CATS?

Kris Hampton  19:35

 Rob.

Nate Drolet  19:36

It's one of the first ones I heard about.

Kris Hampton  19:36

 Rob was my guess.

Kris Hampton  19:36

That's what I was wondering, Rob Candelaria. I wonder if he made the first hangboard.

Kris Hampton  19:42

 I'm sure there were several versions and varieties of that sort of tool around. His is definitely the first one I heard of. 

Nate Drolet  19:52

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  19:53

 I mean, it's a brilliant, brilliant invention. 

Nate Drolet  19:57

I'm sure plenty of people were like doing pull ups on door jams.

Kris Hampton  20:00

Yeah, and I've heard of lots of climbers like going out to their project and just, you know, working it until they could hang on to this specific crux hold. Like on a boulder project, "I'm just going to go out and until I can one arm hang on this hold, I'm not going to try the project."

Nate Drolet  20:18

Whoa!

Kris Hampton  20:19

 And then they would just crush the thing. And really, that's just an early form of how we currently use hangboard.

Nate Drolet  20:26

Yeah

Kris Hampton  20:26

To some degree. So if you want stronger fingers, it's a really good thing. And if you didn't listen to my advice in the beginning of this episode, and you haven't gone and listened to our top five reasons why hangboard is overrated, unsubscribe yourself right now. No, I'm kidding. Don't do that. Please. In fact, subscribe your friends

Nate Drolet  20:52

Steal their phone

Kris Hampton  20:53

Steal their phones, subscribe them. Stealthily put their phone back in wherever you found it from. Take some pictures first. Take some interesting photos. But go listen to that episode if you've not. Because the hangboard is not the only tool you should be using. It's it's not a panacea, as you said,

Nate Drolet  21:17

It's an amazing tool.

Kris Hampton  21:18

It's an amazing tool. Not the only one. So go listen to that episode. And then when you're done with that, come and find us at PowerCompanyClimbing.com. You can find Nathan Drolet on the Instagrams @NateDrolet. That's D-R-O-L-E-T. 

Nate Drolet  21:35

Yes

Kris Hampton  21:36

You can find Nate Drolet and @PowerCompanyClimbing is where you can find me and the whole crew on Instagram, the Facebook and the Pinterest. I haven't been on the Pinterest in a minute. But I do need to go see what's happening over there. And you can look for us on the Twitter. In fact, you can just scroll through the Twitter in between your hangboard sets, but you're not gonna find us there. Because we don't tweet. We scream like eagles.