Interview with Hazel Findlay: Learning, Flow States, and How to Climb with Courage

For most, a seaside trad route replete with poor rock quality and equally unreliable gear placements does not make for a lovely day out at the crag. For Hazel Findlay, this is a backdrop for a world-class ascent.

In Episode 57 of the Power Company Climbing Podcast, Kris interviews mental master Hazel Findlay. Hazel has been called the best female mountaineer in Britain. With her first female ascent of Once Upon a Time in the South West, in Devon, UK, she became the first British woman to climb E9 (6c/5.13b R/X). Some of her other notable ascents are Mind Control (5.14b/8C) in Oliana, Spain, the first ascent of Tainted Love (5.13d/8b R) in Squamish, BC, and the second ascent and FFA of The PreMuir (5.13+/8b R) on El Cap.

A quick glance at Hazel’s resume demonstrates that she is a master of keeping her head together. This interview with Kris reveals some of her critical tips, tactics, and philosophies to help you do the same.

Letting the Body Climb

The podcast opens with a discussion of a post that Hazel wrote for Black Diamond’s blog entitled Let the Body Climb. Her post draws from a book called The Inner Game of Tennis by W. Timothy Gallwey. Hazel gives her own take on one of the core concepts explored in the book:

“Kids learn so fast because they don’t have that inner critic... He would watch people play tennis and he could see that people would go for a shot and immediately criticize themselves… They would put their attention on the wrong things. Their attention would be all in their cognition – the mind – instead of feeling what the racket feels like in their hand, judging the ball in space…”

The Inner Game of Tennis is written for everyone – tennis player or not. It is clear how these ideas are extremely applicable to climbing.

“Your body knows what to do, but the problem is we don’t let our bodies climb. We don’t allow them to do what they know how to do without judgement and without direction.”

— Hazel Findlay

My favorite concept that I have pulled from Gallwey’s book relates to how we learn. Gallwey teaches that the overly cognitive way we approach changing our behaviors or movement patterns can be extremely stifling to the learning process.

“If we let ourselves lose touch with our ability to feel our actions, by relying too heavily on instructions, we can seriously compromise our access to our natural learning processes.”
The Inner Game of Tennis, Gallwey p. 5

Another example from the book that I found both helpful, and charming, is about baby hippos.

On Hippos and Learning New Skills

Gallwey writes about a day he spent at the San Diego Zoo where he observed some interesting hippo behavior. If you watch a hippo in the water, you will see that they sink to the bottom, walk around a bit, and resurface minutes later to breathe.

“I watched a mother hippo... Get up and push [her baby] toward the pond with its snout. When the baby toppled in, it sank like a rock to the bottom and stayed there. Mother sauntered casually to the shallow end of the pool and waded in. About twenty seconds later she reached the baby and began to lift it upward with her nose, sending it toward the surface. There the young student gasped a breath and sank again. Once again the mother repeated the process… After some time, it pushed itself toward the surface with its own hind legs. Then the new skill was repeated again and again. It seemed that the mother knew how much it needed to ‘show,’ when to encourage, and when encouragement was no longer needed.”
The Inner Game of Tennis, Gallwey p. 51

Although our ability to know when to use a back-step isn’t quite necessary to our survival, feeling our way through learning a new skill is much more productive than yelling at ourselves while we break down a crux sequence.

Don’t Judge Yourself

I was recently working on a route in the Red River Gorge that required me to toss in a very tight heel-toe cam in order to make a clip and then use it as a rest. But for the life of me, I could not quickly and efficiently execute the cam! My internal dialogue was not productive: “Why can’t you just place your foot? Why is this taking so long? You’re wasting your whole rest on something that should be easy!” and on and on. If I would have just felt that it was easier to insert the heel-toe cam by pulling up a little before placing it, learning that bit of beta would have gone more smoothly. But instead, I judged myself and tried to tell my body what to do, instead of letting it climb.

Our bodies know how to climb, so let them. Hazel reflects on climbing in her post, Let the Body Climb, saying:

“It’s likely that your body contains all the knowledge that is needed to climb a piece of rock. If it doesn’t, it soon will. Not only does your body climb better without too much conscious direction, it also learns better. This is why it’s very important to “fail” or “struggle.” When you can’t do a move, it’s likely because your body hasn’t done a move like it before. From attempting different methods, your body can absorb knowledge and build the muscle memory of what works and what doesn’t. This is also why it is important to watch others. You can see how they move and when your body gets on the rock it can try to replicate that movement. This subconscious learning process is much faster than any conscious learning you’ll ever do.”

If the core of learning more effectively is noticing and feeling what we are doing, then the next step in increasing one’s mental faculties as a climber should also be to strengthen our “noticing” abilities. A great way to do this is by being present with our surroundings and aware of how we are breathing.

Breathing, Focusing, and Smelling?

“Making alterations to our breath is a masterful way that we can connect to our senses.”

— Hazel Findlay

There is a reason that for thousands of years monks have been sitting in temples becoming masters of their breath. The first written documentation of meditative practice dates back to 1500 BCE (The Origin of Budhist Meditation - Alexander Wynne). If it has lasted this long, there’s probably something to it. To use Hazel’s phrasing, this isn’t “hippy-dippy bullshit.” Having a breathing practice really works.

Focusing on the breath helps us slow down, be present, and focus on the task at hand. As Hazel notes, we can become present with our senses, too.

Here’s a handy cheat sheet of ways you can be in touch with yourself and your surroundings while you’re climbing or preparing to climb.

Summarily, all these tactics in some capacity can help you to notice your feelings so that you can learn to let your body execute what it knows how to do.

Many of these concepts can be hard to pin down and possibly unappetizing, but Kris and Hazel discuss how you can implement these tactics:

“We don’t necessarily have to incorporate all five of these senses into every climb that we try. If we find something that really works for us, we should stick with it… For a lot of people, this doesn’t gel with them. But if it does gel with you, then playing with all of them and seeing what works for you and making it familiar… can be really powerful.”

Here is a clip from the podcast where practical implementation of these tactics is discussed.

The purpose of these tactics is to help you enter a mental state that allows for your optimal performance. Have you ever experienced a time where you performed your best and you had no idea how much time passed while it happened? Science has given this a name: flow state.

What is a Flow State?

While “flow” is on the verge of becoming yet another buzz word, the burgeoning field of research on the subject is both fascinating and highly applicable to the sport of climbing. I personally believe that flow is what makes climbing and other action-adventure sports so attractive - it can be powerfully addictive for those who participate. Here is how the experts describe this phenomenon:

“Flow is that optimal state of consciousness where you feel and perform your best. Your concentration can be somewhat tunnel vision, focusing on the task and letting everything else fall away. Individuals who experience the flow state often report that time can either slow down or speed up, heightening the performance focus.” – The Flow Centre

Hazel’s description of flow relates back to our senses:

“It’s instant feedback. That’s what it is to be in flow… the feedback from the senses is instantaneous. It doesn’t go through the filter of the mind which judges the situation.”

Still not sure you understand how flow feels? Take a listen to this podcast clip for further discussion.

So what can we do to access a flow state? Hazel and Kris discuss pre-climb rituals to help engage a flow state before you get on the wall.

Pre-Climb Rituals

Hazel has been working with the team at the Flow Centre, “an organization dedicated to furthering the integration of Flow through education, training and coaching,” experimenting with pre-climb rituals to engage a state of flow when starting a route.

Hazel and her coach at the Flow Centre have devised this ritual for Hazel: she feels her chalk and really focuses on tying her knot. Kris notes that he likes to put his harness on like he’s “suiting-up.” Personally, I like to take three big breaths with my eyes closed and my head against the wall. I really like having a pre-climb ritual; as Hazel says, “It becomes like an old friend.”

Next time you’re out at the crag, make up a quick ritual and try it out. You might pick a mantra to repeat to yourself, or do some sort of action - like Kris putting his harness on. Let us know how it works out for you by leaving a comment on this post!

So you’ve pulled onto the bottom part of the route and you’ve managed to keep it together, but what happens when you reach a rest?

Mental Tactics while Resting

Many times, climbers can keep it together from the ground, but upon reaching the first big rest, or perhaps a critical rest before the crux, their mental shield begins to shatter. Hazel and Kris discuss this issue and how to combat it:

Have you ever been at a rest and felt yourself falling apart? Your internal monologue might sound something like, “You are way too pumped; there is no way you can finish this.” If the rest that you are at is good enough, you might be afforded the time to pull it together and execute. But oftentimes, this is not the case.

Though rests can often become the point of your mental unhinging on a redpoint attempt, they can also be a great opportunity to prepare for what’s to come. When I climbed the route Starry at the New River Gorge, I went through a visualization of the crux in my head three times at various rests before I had to execute the sequence. It worked well and I sent the route.

Hazel notes that she takes special care to remain as focused when she’s at a rest as she does when she is climbing. This helps her be prepared for what is to come when it is time to depart the rest.

“If you do all these techniques, you shouldn’t be stressed when you leave the rest. All of these things should help relax you.”

— Hazel Findlay

So you have a pre-climb ritual and you have some tips to keep it together when you are at a rest. You understand that achieving a state of maximum focus is important to climbing your hardest, but you might still feel that you have a long way to go. Keeping your mind fit is as critical as keeping your body fit - and may even be more difficult. Your mind needs just as much practice as your body does.

Practicing to Improve your Mental Game

I have a friend at my local gym. She is a V4/V5 climber and can climb 5.10/5.11 on top-rope very easily. So I was shocked when she told me that she had never even really tried to lead anything harder than 5.9 in the gym. The reason? She lacked confidence in herself on the sharp end and is working through a fear of falling. She is capable of harder climbing than her mind is allowing her. Sometimes your mind is the weakest link. If you are too afraid to fall, you cannot climb your best. But fear is not the only mental limitation: if you lack the capacity to focus and execute complex beta, you cannot climb your best either.

If you think your mental game is irrevocably terrible, take it from someone who used to cry on top-rope: this is something you can change. You can improve your mind. You do not have to be afraid forever, but you do have to practice being brave. Hazel relates the practice of mental strength to the physical:

“You would never train your fingers and then expect your fingers to be strong for years without continuing up your finger-boarding. Equally, you can train your mind, but if you don’t continue that practice it will get weak again.”

— Hazel Findlay

So how can we most effectively promote the continuous growth of our mental fortitude in climbing? This starts with our mindset and attitudes.

Always Adopt a Growth Mindset

Hazel and Kris wrap up the episode with some sage advice. No matter who you are, if you feel that your mental game needs improvement, you are not going to get anywhere if you label yourself as a “scared climber” or a “head-case” or whatever other lies you are telling yourself.

Conversely, if you label yourself as someone who is good at something – whether it be your mind or your endurance, you might trick yourself into thinking that there is nothing that can be improved. Here is what Hazel has to say about the importance of a growth mindset:

Always adopt a growth mindset about everything. You can always be better. You can always put energy into practice and one day you will reap the rewards… but as soon as you have a fixed mindset you may as well not step off the ground.

So for those that think they were born too afraid to climb, this really isn’t true, but you do have to believe it for yourself and put in the work to fix it. With that, I’ll leave you with some more wise words from Hazel:

“You’ll never get braver at climbing if you label yourself as a scaredy cat and do nothing about it.”

— Hazel Findlay

Climbing is a skill and so is courage – so get out there and learn.

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MORE RESOURCES FOR MENTAL TRAINING - FURTHER READING/LISTENING:

The Rock Warrior’s Way
EPISODE 17: Process vs. Goal-Based Motivation with Arno Ilgner, (author of The Rock Warrior’s Way)
Mental Coaching from Hazel Findlay
The Inner Game of Tennis by W. Timothy Gallwey
Let the Body Climb blog post by Hazel Findlay
Anxiety and Climbing blog post from Senderella Story
Reflections on Yoga and Climbing blog post by Lauren Abernathy
EPISODE 64: Fixed vs. Growth Mindset with Trevor Ragan from Train Ugly

All photos appear courtesy of hazelfindlay.com