Patty Law | From Belay Check to Gym Ownership

Don’t be fooled by Patty Law’s small frame and soft-spoken demeanor – she’s a fierce climber, mother, entrepreneur, and community cultivator. She’s been welcoming climbers through the doors of her gyms and into a thriving Cincinnati climbing community for more than 20 years now. Kris sits down with his long-time friend to talk about about her journey from a climbing-obsessed college student to a successful businesswoman and community leader.

Photo: Andy Leung

Patty’s not the kind of gym owner that likes to hide away in a back office; you’re far more likely to find her at the front desk giving first-time climbers the lay of the land.

Photo: Andy Leung

DISCUSSED IN THIS EPISODE:

• How Patty, somewhat reluctantly, started climbing.

• How the gym industry has changed since Patty first bought a gym.

• The design considerations Patty kept in mind when opening a new gym.

• The dangers of new climbers venturing outdoors when underprepared.

• The importance of fostering community, especially with climbing’s recent boom in popularity.

FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Patty Law  00:00

I just know what it has done for me. It's such a big part of my life. It's my community and my family, and I feel lucky to be a part of it.

Kris Hampton  00:36

What's up, everybody? I'm your host, Kris Hampton. Welcome to the Power Company Podcast, brought to you by powercompanyclimbing.com. It's been a busy start to 2023. I am back in the swing of things climbingwise and looking forward to the early spring season. And I've been podcasting my face off. This month alone, I have nine different podcast episodes coming out across various channels. I'm working on a new top secret project with Lauren Abernathy that's sort of tangentially related to climbing, alongside the two other climbing-based podcasts that I'm developing currently. And Paul and I are planning the third season of Breaking Beta right now. So lots of talking, recording, editing. And it's a hustle that I'm loving. But I also love listening back to conversations I had a while ago. And I just finished listening to today's episode that I recorded back in October with my good friend, I'm not going to say old friend, even though that will become apparent soon, Patty Law, who now owns the gym that I started climbing in: Climb Time, Blue Ash in Cincinnati. And if you're listening as a relatively new climber in Cincinnati, and you only know Patty as the gym owner, well, there are some things you need to understand before we begin here. Back when Patty and I were both learning to climb and finding our way in what was a very young community, she was incredible to watch: fierce, tenacious, graceful, could hold on to anything, and always made the hardest moves look easy. She can probably crush you. It was inspiring to watch. And she's a key part of the small crew that imprinted climbing onto my life forever. Patty recently opened another Climb Time, about 20 minutes from the first, which is where we sat down to record this chat. And we talk about what the transition has been like from her first gym visit, to buying that same gym, to opening a new, much more modern facility, the things she's kept, the things she's updated, and how she continues to cultivate community. But I'll let her tell you all about that. Let's get into it. 

Kris Hampton  03:07

It has to run on that interpersonal communication.

Patty Law  03:11

Yeah, you have to assess the person that comes in as a potential... I mean, they're wanting something when they're come in, and you have to assess it. And they have different personalities so sometimes you, you need to be able to read people well, because some people don't like to be like, if you're like, too in their face, they feel like they're being attacked. And some people need encouragement. Like even if you're teaching a ballet class, whatever has happened in, kind of little traumas in their childhood, has translated into them having a lack of confidence. So there are many times where, for example, a newer staff member here is, they're new to teaching so they haven't had as many experiences. They'll be frustrated. They're like, "I had to fail them." It's like an hour and a half later, I'm like, "Let me try." So usually it's like somebody in terms of like, "I know they can do this," let me, it's kind of like, have just a second person, maybe read a little bit differently. And it's just because I have more experience. And I'm just a lot more, I'll be encouraging. And I'm like, "You've got this," and then we'll like just go through it slowly and just continue encouraging, little by little, they get it. I will say I don't think I've ever failed anybody. I just know. I think that's a lot of things. I was like, I know people are very capable. You might just have to approach it in a little different way with them that clears their whatever little anxieties they might have. 

Kris Hampton  04:42

Yeah, and they're often here because they want to be taught.

Patty Law  04:46

They all are here, I mean, yeah, they've signed up for the class, right? So they paid for the class. I want them to get their money's worth and I want them to be able to move on to the next level of climbing because they've been here for a few months. I want to open up the top ropes to them. I'm like, "Okay, like, let's do this."

Kris Hampton  05:04

Yeah, so I'm terrible with years, with dates in general, horrible. Do you remember what year you started climbing?

Patty Law  05:14

I'm thinking, I'm thinking it was like definitely mid 90s... like '96 I started at Climb Time Blue Ash. Yeah. And you were the one who gave me my belay class.

Kris Hampton  05:27

Did I do okay in the belay class? 

Patty Law  05:29

Yeah, you did, you did great. You taught a big group of us. So it was a group of me and my friends, we were like in college at that time, I was probably like 20. And yeah, you did great with us. You're always cool, calm, and collected.

Kris Hampton  05:43

That is my, my personality in general.

Patty Law  05:46

That hasn't changed. 

Kris Hampton  05:47

Why did you come to the gym?

Patty Law  05:49

Know what? I actually originally did not want to come. I just, climbing was, I didn't under... I understood that there was a gym that was open. They had to convince me actually on two separate occasions, like, "You're gonna like this, Patty!" I never thought of myself actually, as really athletic. I mean, we played, I played basketball. And I did some gymnastics when I was younger. But I didn't really know what climbing was about because back then it was such a niche sport. I just didn't realize. But eventually I got dragged in almost, with like 10 other friends. My best friend at that time, Dominique, she was like, "No, I want you to go with me." And I will say the second – the second I climbed – just a few moves, I was utterly hooked.

Kris Hampton  06:39

That's amazing to me that you didn't consider yourself athletic because I remember, like fierce Patty from back then being very athletic. And a very good climber.

Patty Law  06:52

I just, I just took to the sport. And you know, some people, they might come in and try it once and not like it, usually because they have a fear of heights, or they have very low self-confidence, maybe, in their physical abilities. Or some people come and they just maybe try it once, once a year, or a few times a month. But they're not like this... They don't have this passion for it. I just knew, like this is, right off the bat, that this is going to be part, a big part of my life. I literally remember that day: everything I climbed, everything I lunged for, I even was on the 45, like 45 bouldering wall and I tried to climb to the top. I made it up halfway, got my one and only gigantic flapper, and that stopped me for the day. But I was going for it. I was like this is, this is like, it was like my drug, in a sense. I just knew, I just knew that this was going to have a big, this is going to change my life in some way. Because at that time, I was just in college, was just studying, like chemical engineering, biology, whatnot. It was something I was expected to do for my family but I had no passion for it. I'd always be off actually studying almost everything else on top of it. I'd be, I'd be taking all these art classes and like, you know, casting sculptures in bronze and taking life drawing classes, history, art history classes, dance classes...

Kris Hampton  08:23

Everything but what you're there for.

Patty Law  08:24

Everything but what I'm there for. And that was a huge sign. But it's just the way I grew up. I grew up in like an Asian family. So there were a lot of expectations, it was very basic, like, you just study. So the education was important, family, and food. Those are the three basics. "And, Patty, don't worry about anything else. Just focus on that." And certain kinds of education, it had to be either you're going to be a doctor, an engineer, or a lawyer, that was about it. Nothing in the creative field or athletic field. Absolutely not.

Kris Hampton  08:59

Yeah, you were like, I remember you just being in there all the time, all of a sudden. 

Patty Law  09:05

I absolutely was. 

Kris Hampton  09:07

And I was there all the time, too, so...

Patty Law  09:09

I think I got a membership right away. And you see, the people who get hooked and seduced by the sport, because I was probably going in at least five days a week. And I had to hold myself back another two days. So five days a week and then probably going in for at least minimum four hour sessions. And that's where, of course, my college education got derailed! I probably was at the Red then, on the other day or two. 

Kris Hampton  09:40

Absolutely. Yeah. It was like there were a handful of staples in the gym, you know? People who were there all the time. And, and it very quickly, for me anyway, became, became family. You know, you just said 'education, family, and food' and, and I agree with those three things really strongly if we can, you know, expand the definitions. Because, because that little community there saved my life. 

Patty Law  10:17

Yes. Gave you purpose. 

Kris Hampton  10:20

Changed who I was, yeah, it built who I am now. And, and it's cool to hear that you were in like a similar like college path and then you find climbing, and, "Okay, my path is changed immediately." What if I had failed you on your belay test?

Patty Law  10:39

If you had failed me, I think I would have... You probably should have failed my friend. I was a little worried. I was like, "Are you sure you got me, Dominique?" Because like back then it was like, SSS method. I was like, "Are you sure you're brake hand's on?" I was a little worried. And she was smaller than I am. Yeah, so and she had these tiny, tiny hands. But everything went fine.

Kris Hampton  11:03

Well, there weren't, there weren't too many, there were a few, but there weren't too many women in that, like immediate Climb Time community. Did it ever feel like you wanted more women there? Did it just feel natural, normal to you?

Patty Law  11:23

I did. I did notice that the ratio of male to females were pretty low. I mean, it is better nowadays. But yeah, 20 something years ago, was it maybe like 20%? It definitely was, well, it still is, a white male dominated sport. But it is becoming more diverse. Women, I felt there were very few dedicated female climbers, only a handful. Or there were women that just were felt like they were dragged in by their boyfriends, or they just came in to spectate. And it never bothered me, because I've always been the type of person who can speak comfortably with men and women, and actually, I think I sometimes prefer, like, having male friends over female friends. As long as somebody is just direct, and really has a point of view, and can have not just surface level communication.

Kris Hampton  12:31

The something that's always fascinated me about you that, that I don't think we've ever talked about, is that we tend to make judgments on people almost immediately when we meet them, you know, whether, whether we like it or not, we're like, "Okay, this person is that type of person," and then that can grow and change. And you're quiet. And but then there's this huge confidence there. And this fierceness there that, that really made an impression on me back then. And I have to think that part of that is what's led into where you're at now. Where does that come from? Do you think?

Patty Law  13:17

I think it comes from definitely my upbringing. So my mother starts early on with my family. She was definitely the one who ran the household. She was the one who had like the confidence and guts to start her own businesses with the restaurant business. And my dad is super kind and loving, all that. But he did not have that kind of gumption. He was actually more anxiety ridden. She was the one that led the charge, took care of the finances, but, but with every relationship, there's a power dynamic, but she was always extremely respectful of that. She did not ever come off like she was holding power over him. She always made it, that he was definitely respected in the house, even though he was not like the one who called, you know, made the decisions, in a sense. So I will say it comes from her. She's always been an extremely confident person. I think she has influenced me and she has taught me to believe in myself and to go after what I want. But basically, don't take advantage of anybody, but don't allow yourself to also be taken advantage of and take care of yourself. Even, even if you're in a relationship, married, whatnot. She's like, you can't totally... you still have to have some autonomy. Because as an individual, you never know how the situation might change. She has always been cognizant of that all my life and would remind me of that.

Kris Hampton  15:04

What a great role model to have.

Patty Law  15:07

She's, she's like, she, she is fierce. So if I get any kind of fierceness, it's from her.

Kris Hampton  15:15

Because you're quiet and soft-spoken, have there been times where people mistook that? Whether it's... 

Patty Law  15:24

Absolutely.

Kris Hampton  15:25

...customers, vendors, whatever, mistook that as not being fierce?

Patty Law  15:32

I will say, like, I mean, I don't feel like I... I just want to, I don't want to just say things and put things out there, they can see who I am by what I do, how I act, how I treat you. How I speak to you. So yes, initially, people were like, "Oh, she's like this tiny Asian person who, Asian female, who is very soft spoken." I will say, I'm very, I know, I'm very accommodating and nice. I want to always make sure somebody is, I try to make people like, I care about what I say and what I do, because I know that can have a lot of influence on another individual. I would never want to effect somebody negatively. I don't want to put that out there. There's too much negativity already. So I am very mindful about what I say, what I do, because I know it has power to it. And for me, I think that in this business, because I know that climbing can have such an effect on somebody's life. Yeah, and just the people you meet, they can become lifelong friends like they have for me. Yeah, in the community.

Kris Hampton  15:34

Yeah, let's set the scene a little bit. So tell me a little about Climb Time: its history, and what Climb Time was... like, like, explain Climb Time to me back in those days. I would love to see it through your eyes while you were there. 

Kris Hampton  15:48

Why – I never, I never asked you this. I never knew this. We're gonna jump ahead a little bit, but – why on earth did you buy that gym?

Patty Law  17:07

So I, Scott Rennak. So I am the, I was the third owner of Climb Time Blue Ash, which opened in 1993. 

Patty Law  17:34

Before I was, I didn't come into the climbing scene until '96. I think it was just about to transfer ownership from Dr. Hume to the second owner, Scott Rennak, who is the current Climbing Business Journal editor and owner. So back then, it's in like this old ware– like it was an old den but it was in a warehouse facility, not very tall. Primarily, it's always been known for bouldering but had some shorter top ropes in there. Maybe the ceiling was not more than 23-24 feet tall. But it's always been known for good bouldering, still is. Very bare bones, I mean very, what you would consider like a 90's dirt bag gym, but where you can train hard and climb hard. And that, that is still the scenario. I will say all of the members who might especially climb at both gyms, they might train on our Tension board, but they will only boulder at Blue Ash because they know you get stronger climbing at Blue Ash than you do at our newer gym, Oakley. It definitely was, definitely more the male dominated sport back then. But everybody was always, everybody in the community is always super friendly and nice. I don't ever feel like they're treating me like, "Oh, what are you doing here? What's the girl doing here climbing in here?"

Kris Hampton  19:06

Did you, did you have the experience of, like, the place feeling like a community effort back then? Like, like a lot of the community helped build the newer walls, the setting was kind of community...

Patty Law  19:23

I felt like it was actually the members were more involved, aside from just the whoever was actually on payroll, the staff members. Because they allowed volunteer setting. They would exchange, I believe, like memberships for volunteering... it was very more loose.

Kris Hampton  19:42

That's how I started in there. I was coming in every day and Chris Eklund was like, "Why don't you just vacuum the floors in the morning and then you don't have to pay anymore." And I think that's the last time I ever bought a gym membership.

Patty Law  20:00

I think that used to happen quite often enough, and maybe a little bit when I took over in 2000. But back then it was, it was like such a niche sport, they didn't even have the Climbing Wall Association. So the gym existed for years without the, like, regulations or like industry standards that have been put out now. So it was... although people were still trying to make sure risks were mitigated in the gym, but it was definitely much smaller community, more relaxed, more like just... instead of like at the newer gym, groups kind of form, groups of friends there. I felt like everybody knew everybody. 

Kris Hampton  20:47

Yeah, everybody kind of went climbing with everybody. And I mean, it was...

Patty Law  20:55

It was a family, it still feels like a family here in a lot of ways, but it's just more members and people form their own little families.

Kris Hampton  21:02

Yeah, I love that you're still involved in that side of it.

Patty Law  21:07

I just know what it has done for me. It's infused every... it's such a big part of my life. I mean, Climb Time is like, it's my community, my family, and I feel lucky to be a part of it. Because I know what it can do for somebody's life, especially if you are, probably mentally seeking an outlet for stress. If you're feeling maybe like you don't belong somewhere, and you're lonely. And when you come in here. People want to come in here, first of all, it's not like they're forced to come in. And it's so social. And everybody is just happy to be here. It's not– it's so easy to make friends here. Yeah, like, and probably even lifelong friends, because you already have that huge commonality that exists with everybody: that they love to climb. So that's a big common thread already that you can like just talk about, but then it turns into like friendships in the gym. And if you start taking it outside, it turns into like road trips. I mean, it's a huge bonding experience. 

Kris Hampton  22:21

Yeah. And that, you know – I totally sidetracked us there – it's one thing to feel accepted, and as a part of something. It's a whole other thing to buy the place and to become the owner. And so keep it going. 

Patty Law  22:36

Okay, back to that question.

Kris Hampton  22:37

How, how did that... how did that come around? 

Patty Law  22:40

So, around 2000, at this point, I became a young mom, had a two year old daughter. I will say parenting is a very challenging experience. But I did not feel fulfilled as being like a stay at home parent. And when my business partner, Matt, who was the father of my kids, he mentioned that Climb Time Blue Ash was for sale. He mentioned, "What do you think? Do you do...? Would you like to do this?" And I was like, "Yes!" So my mom... too, because we were young still, we just didn't, even though it was a small amount to like, take, take over a new business, but we still didn't have the cash on hand. So to, in order to secure a business loan back then, I think interest rateswere like 12% or something ridiculous like that, but my, my mother cosigned the loan. She, and this is telling of her as like, even though she's like a tiger mom, she did not know anything about climbing, this could have been such a risk for her and my dad, but she believed in me, and she believed in wanting me to be happy and to secure like, my future happiness and success. So they had like, they didn't question it even for a moment, her and my dad were like, "Yes, we'll do it for you." So that is how it started. And I just took it over probably within a month. I think Scott Rennak literally gave me the keys and he's like, "I'm off to boulder for a month." It was like, so it's been 'learn as I go' the whole time.

Kris Hampton  24:42

Yeah. Did it seem like a, I'm sure it seemed risky to your parents, did it seem like a risk to you? Because the gym, the gym world was not back then what it is today, where it, where you can see this like future of a business, employing people, and... it was a, it was a chalky, dirty dark place.

Patty Law  25:08

I had, I had friends like, "Why are you gonna buy that hole in the wall? You know, why aren't you instead using that money to like buy a home?" or something like that, which we were living in apartment at that time. I, I will say I don't, I'm the type of person who is a calculated risk taker. I think I have confidence in myself that I just know if I set a goal for myself, I just know that I can do it. Because it's like so many people do things, and you think it's incredible or whatnot. But mine is like, if somebody can do that, why not me? Why not? I mean, if I fail, I fail, but I'm gonna try my hardest to not. But usually I don't even put that in my mind. I'm just like, "Okay, let's go. Let's do this." But not to say there's not a lot of like challenges. There are a lot of challenges. I think that first month, September is like usually the slowest month. And after that first month, I was like, "Oh, no."

Kris Hampton  26:15

Is this gonna work? 

Patty Law  26:16

I know, I was like, "Oh, crap, what's going on here?" But after it starts going past into winter time, I did notice just with a few easy tweaks and whatnot, I think by the end of the first year business had gone up 30%. 

Kris Hampton  26:32

Wow. 

Patty Law  26:33

And just went on from there. And then the sport just is a, was a burgeoning sport back then, was a niche sport. I just felt like every five years this sport is growing. But...

Kris Hampton  26:44

How long was it before you decided to open Oakley? And when did you first start talking about maybe opening another gym?

Patty Law  26:54

I will say I probably had thought about it every five years, throughout that whole time, but it took at least 20 years.

Kris Hampton  27:05

Oh my God. Don't say that! 

Patty Law  27:07

20 years before...

Kris Hampton  27:08

I'm like, you've owned this gym for 10 years, right? 

Patty Law  27:12

No, I had, so it, it took 20 years of business experience before it finally came into fruition. The second gym Climb Time Oakley, it was in 2019 that we opened and it was probably at least a three year project in the making. It's, so it's things that you want and strive for, they are, they just don't come that easily. It takes a lot of time, dedication, a lot of sacrifice. Is not like, "Oh that must be nice," and it just materializes. It takes, it takes a lot and it takes a lot of, it takes a lot of belief in yourself. But also support from a few that really truly know you, believe in you, which is needed. But then you just have to assess the risk and you got to go for it. A lot of people have dreams, but if you are – if you don't like take some time, think about it, and then it's like you got to make a decision – those dreams are just gonna stay dreams.

Kris Hampton  28:21

Yeah. So you have these two gyms. Oakley is much more a modern day climbing gym, you know, how most of the listeners are going to think of climbing gym. Blue Ash, like we said is more like me. It's a very old school training gym. Essentially dirt bag but cool. Yeah, it's, you know, nicer now than it was, but it was very chalky, dirty, dark dungeon feeling...

Patty Law  28:57

Still is! 

Kris Hampton  28:58

...way back in the day. And compared to this, it certainly still is, you know. Talk to me about the differences and maybe the challenges of running two very different style gyms. What, what about the new gym shows up there and what from there might show up here?

Patty Law  29:16

So so because I felt like Blue Ash is, I mean, it's still in existence after 30 years. I think it's a successful gym. We just, I just feel like we just expanded on that basic idea. So Oakley really is just expansion of Blue Ash. I wanted the same as small a community feel as we can with a larger gym. I did not want it to be a giant corporate feeling gym. I still wanted people to as they come in, like front desk staff – me – know them, greet them by their name. I just want, I want them to feel still like they're part of the community, not like just going into some corporate chain. But I just had the ability now to design it more, to exactly how I imagined a gym should be like.

Kris Hampton  30:23

I've been in a lot of gyms around the country, and there are a few that really seem to promote a more community-oriented vibe. And some that are like lots of hidden little nooks and crannies, where you can't see people all the time and makes it feel really separated. What were the conscious decisions in designing this gym to make it more, to be more modern, brighter, cleaner, but still keep that like small community? What, what were the decisions?

Patty Law  30:59

Big decision was also that I just wanted a space for its, for reasons that, so everybody can see each other. So I wanted it kind of open. And not like you have to turn this corner and then you're hidden here and you're hidden there. I wanted it to still be an easy space to navigate. And for just the staff members to be able to monitor very easily. But then the other consideration had to be like I don't want to waste space. I want to fill, fill in this, this building with as much climbable wall space as possible. Otherwise, it's wasted, right? It's like you want to put in as much, and also because of the monochromatic setting, they want it to be as dense as possible, the routes and the boulder problems as much, as much as we can put in.

Kris Hampton  32:00

Yeah, one of the things I've noticed here that I really liked on first visit to this gym a few years ago, that reminded me a little of Climb Time Blue Ash, was that there is this kind of main gym space that's open and you can see everybody, but then there is a way to sort of group together with other like-minded people in your own space by going upstairs. And you can still see everything out in the gym, you know, similar to Climb Time where you're not, you're not necessarily, or Climb Time Blue Ash, where you're not necessarily in a different space when you walk to the backside of the wall. That's the 30 back there, right? The 30 sort of feels like a different zone, where you don't see the long stretch of the gym, but it's still part of the gym, you know what I mean? And that's sort of how the upstairs feels to me.

Patty Law  33:02

You are correct, because there's a mezzanine bouldering area. Some people, all they want is to socialize, not everybody, some people just want to come in and kind of escape. They put on, I know we know to leave them alone when they put on their air buds. They just want some self-care me time. And they will sometimes, yeah, just like if it's not busy, like up in the mezzanine, they'll just find their own corner and just, you know, climb and do their thing and we respect that. But if I feel, they usually come to me, if they say "Oh, I'm looking, I don't know how to like, who should I climb with? I want to meet some cool friends or good friends or I just learned how to lead climb." It's easy to meet people. I'll direct them. I will direct them like, "I think you would like climbing with them. Let me introduce you."

Kris Hampton  33:53

Do you think that's normal for a gym owner?

Patty Law  33:56

Maybe not. But I don't care. I like to be involved in every aspect. I do have to change up things a little bit now because now there's two gyms and the business has grown. I have had many staff members telling me like, "Why are you up front here? Why are you cleaning the bathrooms? Why are you spraying off the shoes and like sweeping? Like you have better things to do. You need to help us grow and expand more. Go into your office and work or something, and not be doing these things. That's why we're all here." I've literally have been told that. But I just want, I just want them to know this is a team. I don't want to, although I know I am the owner, I don't want to be put on a pedestal. I just want this business to flourish and grow because it is here for our community, our members, our staff members. It's come to the point where I've staff members that I've known for as long as you. Like Brent Flenner, I've known him since '96. He was like 10 years old or so. Yeah, I literally still have members who have been a membership holder since the year the gym opened. 30 years that was like, commitment, dedication, support. So I want to do well for, of course for me, but for everybody else also, because like, Brent, he's come on the last few years, I've known him for so long. He's my general manager now. And I want to, I want this, this community and business to do well because I know what it can do for people. And also, for my staff members I know want to be lifers with me, I want to, I want to be able to take care of them. So I really like to be involved in every aspect. I will say I learned how to also route set and all that because I know that's a hard job, but you don't really know until you start doing it yourself. And maybe most owners don't get involved with that. But I need to know exactly how hard it is on their bodies. And like what's involved, because I can, I value them even more. I, first of all, I know they're invaluable. I mean, it's their product that people are paying for, the quality of their route setting. I mean, not that every staff member isn't very important, they are. But the full-timers...

Kris Hampton  36:26

They're all a part of the experience, you know, and this place, it is an experience. Going climbing is an experience. It's, it says a lot that, that your clientele will come to you and say, "Who can I climb with? Who can I meet?" You know, it says a lot about the community ethos that is baked into how you started climbing and, and you've carried over to this place. I'm curious, you said your, your staff wants to be lifers with you. That's fascinating to me because the gym world, the gym business world, back then especially, was like, pretty quick turnover. It was like little job to get you through to the next thing. 

Patty Law  37:28

I do have plenty of turnover, right, with certain staff members. But there are some that want this to be their career, they've done other careers, they realize money isn't everything, although I do want them to be taken care of financially, but they've done, they don't want to work just for money. They, they're the ones who want to stay here, they realize that all these facets or these like parts are coming together for them and that they truly love working here. They truly love the people here. They, they love their work, all of that. So that is why they want to stay with me as long as they possibly can.

Kris Hampton  38:15

When did you make that mental shift?

Patty Law  38:17

What is that? 

Kris Hampton  38:18

Like? When did you make that mental shift of how... it seemed to me like when you bought the gym, it was 'the gym owners are like the manager,' the purchaser, the, you know, they do everything. And they have a rotating cast of employees, none of whom see this as a viable career. When, at what point did you make the shift into thinking "I need career-minded people in this."?

Patty Law  38:56

Definitely once the newer gym, Climb Time Oakley opened up, and it was amazing. The response, I mean, I was, the community like just rallied up and was, I was just amazed. First day we're open? We're open for just a six hour day and they were lined up for four hours waiting to come in, waiting in line for four hours. Brent was already working for me, at least for a year by that time. He literally was doing lead tests in the back corner of the gym and did not leave that spot a whole six hours.

Patty Law  39:38

It was so... This community has given me so much. How can I not try to give them as much as I can? But at this point I realized I couldn't have all the hats. It's taken probably two and a half years. But I can't have all the hats that I wear. I had been terrible at delegating, and now I realize I need to delegate and I need dedicated people who are passionate about this community and business as much as I am. So that is where the shift began. Also, I just couldn't also handle like us working at times 70 to 100 hours a week. Yeah, I couldn't. I know that is crazy to try to sustain.

Kris Hampton  39:38

I love it. 

Kris Hampton  40:26

Yeah, I mean, I'm similar in that regard, and that I have the same like, "Oh, I can do that," ethos, you know, and I'm terrible at delegating, the same as you are. So we both, I think, work in really similar fashions. But how wild is it that these things that we, that we built out of a dirty chalky, dark dungeon – the gym – are now careers for people? 

Patty Law  41:01

Yeah, we're truly fortunate and lucky, in terms of like, we followed, we turned our passions into something that can sustain us careerwise, I mean, that's an amazing gift. And I highly value that. And if I can do that for other people, or just whatever climbing can offer to them, I gladly will do that. But I just know now also, you have to keep things balanced. I mean, because you have friends, you have family, you have other hobbies, other things you're passionate about. And if you don't take care of yourself – and, and when you give responsibilities to other people, that is actually a gift to them, and helps them grow as individuals and to do, to grow more in their career, all of that – and I'm really, I'm just trying to share it because it's given me so much. And, and if I am taking that time to self-care, for me, I can actually do more.

Kris Hampton  42:03

For sure. 100%. How has it affected your climbing? Because I've, I've joked a number of times, if you ever want to quit climbing, just get a job at a gym. So I'm curious how, how your climbing has had its ups and downs over the years and how you feel about it? 

Patty Law  42:25

So I don't want to admit, but for a long time, just because having a family, having a family and running a business, it was difficult to balance that. I literally would not climb for years at a time. And it's just until now, because now that my kids are either out of the house or they're older, the two, I I have gotten back into climbing. And I'm just, if not more, passionate about it. And appreciate it even more.

Kris Hampton  42:59

Yeah, and you've got a good team and you're learning to delegate. 

Patty Law  43:03

Yes. And this is my career. So I shouldn't be not, like I shouldn't be, I should be involved. I should be climbing, so... So let's come back like full circle to that. I plan to do this until as long as I can. I don't want to truly retire, I might want to, ideally down the road, I'd like to just do what I want to do when I want to do it. But I'd never foresee myself leaving the community.

Kris Hampton  43:03

Yeah, it's, it's remarkable being on the outside looking in all these years, you know, there were definitely times when I'm like "Oh, I wish Patty was still climbing, like it was so much fun to watch her climb. I wish I could do that again." And, and then I would see like through Instagram, Facebook, I would start to see photos of you like with people in the gym or outside climbing and, and it gets me so excited to see that. But I think it's remarkable that you've not only remained part of the community while maybe not being able to climb but also fostered the love of this, you know, with so many people who've come through these gyms in the you know, the 10 years or whatever that you were in and out of climbing for yourself, or 15 years, or whatever it was. 

Patty Law  44:40

Yeah, it's just amazing. I mean, it's just been an amazing experience like, all this. All the stories I hear, all the people I know, all the people that come back, all the people are still in my life, it has just been so full. And I can't say anything else but be grateful to be involved with this and I keep, I'm just gonna keep going. 

Kris Hampton  45:06

I think you're in a unique position, like having the, being able to see what the old gym model looked like. And, and now being in this newer model of gym business, you know, and being able to carry that community vibe that, that made the old gyms work – might have been the only thing that allowed the old gyms to work, you know – and carrying it over into this. But I'm curious, are there things that you think the new like modern gym is missing? Not your gym in particular, but modern gyms in general? Is there, is there something missing that should have been carried over from that old gym model?

Patty Law  45:59

I don't want to speak too much for other gyms, I just know, from just my personal experience, I want to maintain the grassroots feel, the community feel of support, like love. It's just, it's like your family. I mean, and a lot of people tend to be transient, they like move around. But the thing is, the climbing gym that you want to belong to, you feel like when you move to a new place and you don't have any friends, you feel like you're with family again, if you find the right gym. But things that are missing with the newer gyms. Sometimes because it's like bigger, and more, and it's been growing. I mean, since 2000, I think the number of gyms in the US has at least tripled. And I think like, now that is just such a mainstream world sensation, type of sport. You just have to encounter a lot of people and they come here for all different kinds of needs. It's not like, "Oh, they're coming in to train and climb on projects." There's still them. But there's less, less mentors, and more mentees now, a lot of new climbers. And I feel like it is my job, in terms of like, even though I want to help them like, grow their passion and everything, but sometimes I have to tell them to slow down, just enjoy the sport. Because they want to go there, because they just see what they see in those documentaries and all that, and a lot of them, they just want to get outside right away. Like literally sometimes they will be, they want to learn how to belay within like a month of climbing, and then the following week, they want to take my lead clinic. And like, no, it's, just not ready. During like our times, like starting off, I felt like people didn't lead for at least a year or two sometimes. But now they're jumping in straight from the – rushing things. They just want to, they, literally, they scare me. I'll say it's like the influx of people I know, like every weekend, somebody will tell me, staff members or gym members, they would tell me some incident that would, that happened outside or almost happened that was extremely scary. Especially in the crags with those really like lower, the moderate grades or whatnot, a lot of things people doing incorrectly, like literally people be learning how to lead and cleaning anchors right then and there, as their friend's shouting at them how to clean the anchors while they're like 70 feet up. Or they'll tell me that they're coming in to climb here for one week because they're planning on a trip and they're buying all their gear and they're gonna climb outside the following week. Or they learned how to YouTube everything. So they, they know how to use a Grigri, and lead belay with it, and all this, and it just scares me. I'm like, this is a dangerous, inherently dangerous sport.

Kris Hampton  49:14

You're definitely right, that there's a lack of, of the type of mentor, you know, that that I think we both had. I think there are different mentors in different ways.

Patty Law  49:31

The mentors here usually are newer climbers. I feel it's like somebody who literally maybe learned how to lead maybe a year ago, two years ago, last month, and now they're mentoring.

Kris Hampton  49:44

And they want to be the expert. 

Patty Law  49:45

Yes, I see that happening a lot. And I'm like, so back then it'd be like, oh, somebody has been climbing, the 'trad dads', you know, all that. And they've been climbing for like a decade or more and they're gonna take somebody under their wing. But now there's just less of those experienced climbers in the gym. There just are, compared to how many new climbers are in the gym. There's only so many mentors for so many people. So I'm trying my best, I'm trying my best to.

Kris Hampton  50:14

But, but knowing you, and hearing you say, 'I'm trying to do my best," does it weigh on you that, that you can't get to everybody? And help everybody?

Patty Law  50:27

I really try my best. And I try myself, I try to allow myself to be as available as possible to anybody who has questions, or wants to glean some information from me, totally open to that, or to direct them to the people that they might be climbing, that they should be climbing with. No, yeah, I feel like it's, too, especially in the gym, is definitely my responsibility. To make sure they climb as safely as possible and learning properly. I direct them away from, oh, they've been climbing for a month? I'm like, "No, do not be hangboarding."

Kris Hampton  51:06

Yeah, I do think it's really important to have that, you know, even if you're not the mentor who's taking them outside and showing them all these things, I think it's important to have. I remember I worked at a pizza place, I was probably, it was right before I went outside climbing for the first time. And I had just bought quickdraws from Chris Eklund at the gym, who was managing the gym at the time. And, and I remember sitting at the pizza place, like, I had read all the books, and I was thinking about how it all goes. And then it occurred to me, "I don't know how to get these off of the route," like, so I called Climb Time, and was like, "Hey, I have a question. Do you just leave a carabiner at the top of every route you climb?", you know. And then it all got explained to me. And I came into the gym and he showed me how to do it. And, and it was great, you know, but you do have to have somebody who's available for that to happen.

Patty Law  52:18

We try to be as valuable as possible. I will flat out tell you if I don't feel like you're ready to take like the lead clinic. And I tell them they should also have like a Gym to Crag type clinic. So, because a lot of the new people, also because of the influx of people, they don't know what they should be doing properly at the crags like the proper etiquette and all of that, aside from just learning how to clean anchors properly so that they are safe. But I try to make it as valuable as possible. But sometimes they're just impatient. If I tell them no, they'll just go learn from somebody else. Or they just head out. There's I mean, I can't control them as people, but I can just...

Kris Hampton  53:05

It's good that you recognize that. 

Patty Law  53:07

But we just have to enforce the rules that we have in the gym and uphold them. So if you're not climbing a certain level, or probably certain amount of time, I probably won't often allow you to sign up for the clinics, lead clinics.

Kris Hampton  53:23

That's good. We've mentioned a couple times, this is kind of a male, white male dominated sport, especially when you and I started. I have to imagine that gym ownership has an even smaller percentage of non-white male in its ranks. Is this something you've ever dealt with? Struggled with? Is it, what's it been like being a woman of color who owns a gym?

Patty Law  54:02

I will say I feel like the climbing population has changed since 20 years ago. And I will say for – I can't speak for all women and for women of color – for me personally, I've never let it be a focus. For me, I am just, I am an individual capable of what I think I'm capable of. And that is how I just approach life, and I'll let you see, my actions will prove how I am. I'm not gonna just put out stuff and talk a bunch of stuff. You'll know by how, how I act. Obviously, I never think about stuff like this. I just know I've been around in this industry for a long time and I try not to think about that either. And how long we've known each other... and I don't think about that.

Kris Hampton  55:05

Until you start saying things like "25 years"...

Patty Law  55:09

Or stuff like "mid-90s" and we're like, "What, five years ago?" But it's been all, an awesome journey.

Kris Hampton  55:19

I am, I am beyond thrilled that you're still here, that you've taken this role in the community, I think it's so fucking important for, for the people who are the pillars in this climbing community to, to care about things like mentorship, and helping people find careers in this thing that they love the same way that you and I were able to do. And just being a, an encouraging, kind voice to people. I feel like this, you know, this Cincinnati community, even though I'm not here anymore, it's still home to me, you know, people here are still family and, and I feel like it's in really good hands.

Patty Law  56:24

It's, I don't feel... I'm just blessed. I just feel blessed to be part of this community. And if they want me to have a role in helping lead the charge, I will graciously accept that. And I'm honored.

Kris Hampton  56:40

I think you already have that role. 

Patty Law  56:42

But there's just so many people who just are so involved. I mean, the coalition, all the people who are, who work in the gyms and like all my, all the staff members at the gyms, they are just amazing. They just understand how special this community is. And they want to do whatever they can to expand and preserve it. Because we want people to realize how, what a wonderful community it is, we want them to be in it. We just know what it has done for so many people in terms of like, how... the friendships that have been made, the way you just feel supported, diversity, inclusivity, I mean, it's just.... I don't know, too many words. Too many words to explain like, what, how positive this is.

Kris Hampton  57:39

Yeah. And all your words are for other people. So I'm, I'm going to push your flowers on you and, and tell you how great I think you are and how glad I am that you're here. And then I'm going to turn this recorder off, so you can't have a rebuttal.

Patty Law  57:56

I am working on, working on being better at accepting any kind of praise. Thank you. And I will just say thank you so much, Kris. And I love being part of this climbing community with people like you.

Kris Hampton  58:09

Wow, thanks for doing this with me, Patty. I know I've mentioned it to you a lot of times and you're kind of always like, "I don't have anything to say." 

Patty Law  58:17

I know, I'm such a terrible speaker. You know, I'm a very reserved person. But this has been great. It's been terrific.

Kris Hampton  58:28

Now, she might be reticent to accept the flowers but I would love it if the next time every single one of you Cincinnati folks see her you tell her thanks for what she does for your community. One of my favorite things about the gym scene there, as I knew it, is that there's a very strong lineage of women who ran and worked in the gyms and become leaders in that community. Patty, Val, Margarita, Yasmine, Sarah, Becca, Brianna, and so many more. Cincinnati, you're in good hands. And if you're traveling through, and you're the type who loves historical old gems that are still thriving, and have turned out some of the strongest boulders around with some of the biggest best bouldering walls – let's be clear. Then stop into Climb Time Blue Ash. If you want to see the newer, more modern side of that community, stop at Oakley. And you can thank me later. Patty, thank you! Next time let's climb and do dinner, no business talk. All of you know where to find us: powercompanyclimbing.com, @powercompanyclimbing on all the social medias. Except for that Twitter spot because we don't tweet, we scream like eagles.