Episode 17: Process vs. Goal Based Motivation with Arno Ilgner

In Episode 17, I sit down with mental training guru Arno Ilgner, author of "The Rock Warrior's Way, Mental Training for Climbers."  Most of us recognize "The Warrior's Way" as a method to get over the fear of falling, but it's so much more. Athletes of all levels can benefit hugely from what Arno and I discuss during this podversation... the differences between being motivated by goals and being motivated by process.  We go in depth about his process, and talk a little about work he's done recently with pro climber Heather Weidner during her campaign to send "Simply Read" (13d).  I have a feeling you're going to walk away from this one wanting more, and I plan on delivering just that.  

You can find Arno at: www.warriorsway.com 

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FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Kris Hampton  00:00

 What's up everybody? I'm your host, Kris Hampton. Welcome to Episode 17 of the Power Company Podcast brought to you by powercompanyclimbing.com. Where to start? I am on a rest day today, having just finished up a stretch of nine days straight climbing here in the Red. And if you were wondering if nine days is too much, let me just go ahead and confirm that for you that: yeah, nine days is too much, too many. And I'm going to go ahead and blame that on some guys that actually helped me out early in this campaign and the Red when I've been working on, you know, kind of short bouldery 13 minuses that I never got done while I was here that I never put any real time into because they just weren't my style at all. That's what I've been focused on. And I realized pretty quickly that warming up was a pain in the ass and, and my skin was failing fast. So I reached out to Tension Climbing, they hooked me up with their new flash board. And I reached out to Rhino Skin Solutions based on the advice of a friend and they hooked me up with some of their skin products. And I've been going for nine days since my skin is great. My warm ups have gotten better. So thanks to those guys. And damn those guys. I'm gonna be doing reviews on the site of both of those products because I really believe in them. But anyway, let's get on with this. Today we've got Arno Ilgner, on the podcast, you know Arno, from Warriors Way. And I think you're gonna be surprised about some of the things that we talk about in this interview. It's not just about fear of falling, which is kind of the thing he's been made famous for. And we actually go in into a little depth in his process with recently with athletes, Heather Weidner, who is a brilliant climber, and was having some difficulties with a route called Simply Read in Rifle a 13d that she was working on. And she reached out to Arno, or Arno reached out to her after hearing that she had read his material. And they work together on the route, which Heather subsequently sent. So thanks to Heather, for letting us talk a little about your story. And also, I just think that Arno is a really, really smart dude. And he's got this stuff dialed in and, and I really appreciate where he's coming from with it. And I look forward to having him on the podcast more. But for now, I'm just going to let you guys jump into this. Alright...

Arno Ilgner  03:07

...that the end result goal can give us vision, give us direction, kind of help us make decisions and take actions that lead us there. But then our primary motivation needs to be more intrinsic learning based motivation, which are processes.  We're fully committed to that not wanting to rest.

Kris Hampton  03:40

Yep. Yep. You want to beer something before we start? I've got some cold beers in the cooler.

Arno Ilgner  03:45

No, I'll take one after.

Kris Hampton  03:47

Okay, cool. All right. Well, let's just jump into it then. So I think most people when they think of what you do, because you've done this Warriors Way for for quite a long time now, how long has it been?

Arno Ilgner  04:01

Uh, officially made the decision and mid 90s? So it's been roughly 20 years?

Kris Hampton  04:06

Yeah. Wow. That's super cool. It's cool to see that it you know, it continues to to grow. That's cool to watch. But I think what most people think of when they think of the Warriors Way, and when they think of you is is the fear of falling thing. I think that seems to be the most prevalent. 

Arno Ilgner  04:24

That's true.

Kris Hampton  04:25

 But But that's not what we're going to talk about. We're going to talk about, and and correct me if I'm wrong here because what I what I do with these podcasts is I kind of let the person I'm talking to or I'm talking to sort of direct me in the subject. If they're super psyched on something if you know if the guest is feels like they're an expert in something, then we can talk about that subject and I like to go into it with this total beginner mind like I'm trying to learn from you because that's what I'm here for basically. So what we're going to talk about is motivation. And goal based motivation versus process based motivated. Is that right?

Arno Ilgner  05:06

Yes. And I'm glad you brought up the falling thing, because even though falling is a really important thing to address, I think it has skewed maybe a lot of more advanced or elite athletes from understanding how they could benefit from the material.

Kris Hampton  05:24

Yeah, I think you're right.

Arno Ilgner  05:26

And so I think, you know, I listened to one of your podcasts, I think it was with Neely, and you mentioned about working with primarily intermediate to advanced athletes, you know, and it's been kind of similar for us with the Warriors Way, because when when we schedule a training tour, we go around different parts of the country and advertise it, of course, and then the typical students we get are in that range, you know, 5.9 to 5.12. 

Kris Hampton  05:56

Yep.

Arno Ilgner  05:57

 And so, in one sense, that's the target market that we're drawing from. But it's also it's also because their particular need with dealing with falling it, the material directly addresses that. But there's some so much more depth to that, than just falling to the material. 

Kris Hampton  06:21

Yeah, totally. 

Arno Ilgner  06:22

And that's really one of the main major shifts that we're working on right now is finding way to tweak. Maybe not tweak, but to emphasize different parts of the material, like motivation, like you mentioned, that actually, elite athletes are aware that the material can help them in those areas that are particularly useful for them.

Kris Hampton  06:44

Yeah. And you're working with some elite athletes now?

Arno Ilgner  06:48

Starting to more so Heather Weidner is one.

Kris Hampton  06:52

Yep. And we're gonna talk a little about Heather's case. And what's your you know, what you're doing with Heather today? Right.

Arno Ilgner  06:57

Yes.

Kris Hampton  06:58

Yeah. So how did Heather approach you like, what was? What was the impetus for her reaching out to you?

Arno Ilgner  07:07

Well, it's kind of interesting. I listened to her interview with Neely on training beta, you know, when when it came out. And she mentioned about Warriors Way helping her, you know, reading the book, The Rock Warriors Way. And so that piqued my awareness that, hey, you know, she sees the information is valuable, but she had never taken a training class from me. So I think things can tend to coincide, like her need for training and also Warriors Way ability to start approaching elite athletes. It kind of came together at the OR show, this last August.

Kris Hampton  07:52

It's win win for both of you.

Arno Ilgner  07:53

Yeah. And so started talking to more elite athletes about doing training with them, like what do they have mental training issues and needs that, you know, we could work together on and so I ran into Heather there. And we talked a little bit and she said, absolutely. So I was traveling with one of our trainers, Jeff Lotus, and we decided we were going to Wyoming and we were going to be heading back through Boulder. And so we had an opportunity to talk with Heather and, and set the groundwork for beginning to do the training to coaching. And so Jeff took her through our basic falling commitment clinics, so she could understand the core drills and more specifically to understand the core tenants of the material through doing those drills. Because even though we do movement drills and falling drills, which may not be an issue for an elite athlete, it's really not about those drills. It's about getting down to the more core issues, right motivation and incremental learning process and use of attention, things like that.

Kris Hampton  08:59

Yeah, I think it's cool that you that you have drills that really drive home those basics, you know, that's something Nate and I have been working with in our in our workshops, quite a bit is coming up with drills that really drive home the basics that people tend to overlook, you know, and and drills are really concrete, actionable way for people to dive into it and to see its value. So... Absolutely.  I think that's cool.

Arno Ilgner  09:24

They're actionable part is really important, because one of the really important parts of the material is that you know, something when you experience that, and we can tend to just intellectualize about things. And until we can create a drill and actually experience what it's like to be motivated in a certain way. Yeah, like, by processes over end results, I say, then we don't really understand the depth of that particular concept, right? For sure.

Kris Hampton  09:51

Yeah, that's really cool. So was Heather having a particular thing that she wanted to work on? Or was it the She just knew that there was room to grow in that area?

Arno Ilgner  10:03

She had a particular thing. And it was negative self talk. And it seemed to be structured around self worth issues. Which...

Kris Hampton  10:11

You know, I think that's, I think that happens quite a bit. And I don't want to totally generalize here. But I see that a lot with females, especially, that they can be really, really super positive for everyone else. And then when it comes to themselves, they they're really hard on themselves.

Arno Ilgner  10:28

Probably more hard on themselves, then then guys are.

Kris Hampton  10:32

 Yeah.

Arno Ilgner  10:33

I mean, I think everyone suffers to some degree with, you know, ego and self worth issues and negative self talk. But I think there's, there's certain aspects of our society in a way. Young boys and young girls are socialized that for sure. And it sets up girls, at least that's part of it, you know, to be harder on themselves.

Kris Hampton  10:55

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So, you know, did you? Did you climb with Heather to see what was going on? Or was it just a... Did she have a pretty clear picture of, here's what I'm doing? I know what's wrong? What can we do collectively to work on that? 

Arno Ilgner  11:17

Well, she, she's clear about the negative self talk not being helpful. 

Kris Hampton  11:22

Yep.

Arno Ilgner  11:22

 And so the way we are structuring it is we have an in person session where we'll run them through the fall commit drills. And so that athlete understands the foundational tenants of the material. And so, so Jeff Lotus, took her through a day of training in Boulder, because I had to come back to Tennessee.

Kris Hampton  11:45

This  is indoor outdoor?

Arno Ilgner  11:46

It was, it was indoor. 

Kris Hampton  11:48

Okay.

Arno Ilgner  11:49

And so that took, I don't know, four to six hours or something like that. So, but in addition, he also started doing an inquiry work with her where he would, like, bring up one of the negative self talk, things that she was maybe saying to herself, right, and then dig into that, like, where it was coming from? So...

Kris Hampton  12:12

Is he doing this between routes or?

Arno Ilgner  12:14

Yeah, between routes.

Kris Hampton  12:15

Okay.

Arno Ilgner  12:16

So we're no worries with material. So far, it's really been mostly about identifying the tasks that we have in climbing and then noticing when our attention is distracted off those tasks, getting it back on task. So almost like sort of a mindfulness meditation kind of process, you know, you become more aware of where he's supposed to have your attention focus. Notice when it's distracted and get it back on task. So kind of a redirecting process. 

Kris Hampton  12:46

Yep. 

Arno Ilgner  12:46

But we're realizing that there are also two other areas that we want to broaden the understanding and application of the material. And one is inquiry, which is more of an intellectual kind of process, you know, where you can bring to light a certain limiting belief or self talk, and then dig into, like, where that's coming from. And a lot of times, it has a lot to do with the various trauma issues that we have, as we're growing up, and everybody suffers from some degree of trauma issues for their kids, even if they have what you might consider a perfect childhood. Absolutely. So it's digging into that in an intellectual way. But then also we're looking for like, experiential ways to apply that and, and work through it on on a climb. So, for instance, if you What is it like to climb with holy and negative, that negative thought in your mind? 

Kris Hampton  13:49

Yeah.

Arno Ilgner  13:50

 And then kind of compare that with? How's it? What does it feel like when you're actually climbing without that thought with something else?

Kris Hampton  13:59

 Right.

Arno Ilgner  13:59

 Now, a simple example, would be like, I can't do this, as opposed to your climbing with the thought in your mind that I can do this, just the simple thing like that. So that's the second kind of prong of what we're working toward. And then the third one is deepening what you might call the flow state, or how to be more in the moment. 

Kris Hampton  14:24

Yeah. 

Arno Ilgner  14:25

When you're actually in the climbing experience. Essentially, what what it's going to do is it's going to build on those first two, because really, the flow state is nothing magical. It's just being able to have attention in a moment focused on whatever it needs to be focused on in client process, without having the mind distracting your attention so that you're kind of in sync with the climb mentally and physically. So the third part we're looking at, primarily so far, the way the way we are understand it is deepening the awareness process of, of ourselves.

Kris Hampton  15:06

 Right.

Arno Ilgner  15:07

 And it's still I mean, Jeff, Jeff and I are particularly digging into all of this together. And so we're still in disparate experimental stages.

Kris Hampton  15:17

Cool. Can we can we talk a little about it? Have you been working with Heather on those to tenants as well?

Arno Ilgner  15:24

No. I've been working with her on the second one, not the third one. 

Kris Hampton  15:26

Okay. I'm kind of super interested in the second one, actually. Largely, because my fiance has, you know, she's my main climbing partner. And she's, there's a lot of negative self talk. 

Arno Ilgner  15:42

Okay.

Kris Hampton  15:42

 She's the most positive person at the crag for everyone else. And then as soon as she's on the wall, I can't do it, I'm stuck. You know, this is too hard for me. And, and she's gotten herself into this process that takes a long time to get comfortable and to send a route that's well below her physical limits.

Arno Ilgner  16:03

Right. 

Kris Hampton  16:03

So we've been working on trying to short that shorten that process. Slowly, and I'm not very good at it. Because I tend to be really blunt. And as soon as I see her being negative, I tend to just point it out. And I don't know if that's the right thing. So so I'm really interested in in hearing what you have been working on with Heather and how to you know how to work through this.

Arno Ilgner  16:27

Yeah, it's, it's difficult for, you know, people will learn from each other in relationship. I mean, that's one thing as far as getting in the way, you could have the same student and not be in that relationship, and she'd probably listen to just fine. 

Kris Hampton  16:41

Yeah, totally.

Arno Ilgner  16:41

Even if you're blunt.

Kris Hampton  16:43

Yeah. And I wouldn't be as you know, as quick to, to jump in as I am now. I'm sure if we weren't in a relationship, you know, that comfortablity it allows me to just jump in.

Arno Ilgner  16:54

So, by the way, I did speak with Heather, and she said, it's okay to talk about this.

Kris Hampton  16:59

 Yeah.

Arno Ilgner  17:00

So.

Kris Hampton  17:02

That's Heather, by the way.

Arno Ilgner  17:03

But see, we basically we, we said that there's certain issues around self worth. Like, I'm not worthy to be here working on this 14a, 

Kris Hampton  17:15

Right.

Arno Ilgner  17:16

Because all these other climbers that are claiming this grade are so much better than I am you now.

Kris Hampton  17:20

 Yeah.

Arno Ilgner  17:21

 And all climbers, you know, our egos get in there, and we we get in comparison game. And then our attention is all on that. And if we measure up or not, and so, so we wanted to address that. And to address it, we really need to have the athlete understand motivation. And we basically, I mean, there's a lot of ways to understand motivation, but there are two basic ways that we can be motivated. One is toward goals like end results, achieving a certain grade or a certain route.

Kris Hampton  17:57

Right? And a lot of us are tied up in that. You know, numbers are oftentimes what guides our motivation?

Arno Ilgner  18:04

Well, it's society is rolled up in that, you know, that's the way the whole capitalistic societies is structured is around that end result goal motivated, or goal oriented motivation. But then there's a process motivation, and process motivation is more learning based, like what do I need to learn so that I can achieve that end goal? 

Kris Hampton  18:30

Yep. 

Arno Ilgner  18:31

So So we, we looked with Heather we looked at like, what is causing that end result, motivation? And how can we shift that toward this learning based process motivation? So we start with understanding that we all have an ego. And the ego likes to feel important. 

Kris Hampton  18:56

Yep. 

Arno Ilgner  18:56

Okay, likes to feel important based basically, on my achievements, based compared to other people. So you can go to a cragen people are constantly sizing themselves up, you know, against everybody else that's there, you know, am I the best climber here, or the worst climber or somewhere in between, and envy, creates certain comfort zones around being if I'm the best, you know, maybe I don't have to work as hard on this. And it's still I still feel okay about myself. If I'm the worst, and, you know, maybe I can give my full effort to it, then don't have any expectations. So, so we need to look at how the ego tends to put us in some hierarchy with other climbers. 

Kris Hampton  19:41

Yeah, I think it was. Anytime I have a quote in my mind, and I can't think of exactly who it was. I just blame it on Eleanor Roosevelt. I think it's her who said, "comparison is the thief of joy." And, and I really love that quote, because I see so many people like you were just saying, especially in the gym, which is I spent a lot of my time really watching people really comparing themselves, like, how come he can do that problem, and I can't, I've been climbing longer, you know, I did this problem, and he didn't. And it's just this constant comparison game and it takes you right out of where you should be, I think.

Arno Ilgner  20:15

It's kind of an extrinsic, external kind of motivations, like, we get a sense of ourselves and are motivated by what's outside of us. Whereas if, if we can convert that more into an intrinsic motivation, where it's coming out of us, like a certain organic desire to just do our best on a climb.

Kris Hampton  20:39

 To improve the get better.

Arno Ilgner  20:40

Then it's less less comparison. So, okay, so we understand the ego, and then it this is kind of an intellectual process. So I was taking her through an intellectual process, and then giving her some experiential tools at the end. So. So understanding how the ego can do that. And then its effect on attention. So when we're motivated by the end result, and one thing, I think, is really important about people understanding the Warriors Way material is it's not a philosophy, it's just a very pragmatic way of understanding how to stay focused, and, and do your best, you know, it's not, you should be process motivated, cuz it's really the best way to be, you know, it's you know, it's, it's gonna be really cool, you know, or something like that. No, it's not about that. It's because it's very pragmatic. So if we look at end result, motivation, compared to process motivation. Think about a goal that, well, Heather wanted to achieve a goal, Simply Read. R-e-a-d at Rifle.

Kris Hampton  21:53

Which she just did by the way right?

Arno Ilgner  21:54

Which she just did. But so she wanted to achieve that goal. And I said, Okay, have you achieved that today? She said, No, it says, okay, that goal is in the future. So if we're motivated by the goal, then we tend to project our attention. We, if we overvalue it, we tend to project our attention into the future into things we can't control.

Kris Hampton  22:18

Right, we're not being motivated by something we can do right now.

Arno Ilgner  22:21

That's exactly right, we need to be well, primarily motivated, you know, it's important to understand that both are, are helpful.

Kris Hampton  22:31

Right. And they're, they're not exclusive of each other.

Arno Ilgner  22:33

No.

Kris Hampton  22:34

They can exist together,

Arno Ilgner  22:35

The the end result goal can give us vision, give us direction, kind of this, help us make decisions and take actions that lead us there. But then our primary motivation needs to be the more intrinsic learning based motivation, which are processes that occur in the moment, you know, each moment each minute, each hour each day, that's leading us toward that goal.

Kris Hampton  23:01

Right.

Arno Ilgner  23:01

Because the only thing we actually can control is things that happen in the present moment. And those are, those are processes.

Kris Hampton  23:08

Yeah, I think that's really cool. I've never thought of, in my head, the two are generally mutually exclusive. You know, and I've never really thought of it as sort of as a percentage thing, you know, it can be or they piggyback off of each other, you know, you can still be goal oriented, and goal motivated. But then to achieve that goal, you're gonna move into process motivation. You know, and I, and I think maybe that's the way I am, I think that's what I fall into, because I do like the goals. I do like, the end results. But I definitely really love the process. And I love digging into it. But my process is always dictated by some end result. So I've never put it together like that. That's, that's pretty cool.

Arno Ilgner  23:57

Your process is dictated by the end result in to a degree in that there are certain things that you need to learn along the way to achieve that. 

Kris Hampton  24:07

Yep exactly. 

Arno Ilgner  24:08

But if we think about it, you know, achieving end result occurs just in a split second, right?

Kris Hampton  24:17

Right. Right.

Arno Ilgner  24:17

 What is the majority of our life leading up to that for some people is several years working toward a goal.

Kris Hampton  24:24

Yeah. And sometimes that goal is just part of the process anyway, you know, hopefully, that goal is a part of the process.

Arno Ilgner  24:31

Well, it's, it's a test. Okay, it's a test that you're learning. Like, what did you learn along the way? Let's, let's draw a line in the sand here and make sure that you actually can show me that you've learned how to keep it together to do that red point. 

Kris Hampton  24:48

Yeah.

Arno Ilgner  24:50

 So an important part is to enjoy the journey, you know, to enjoy the learning process that makes up those five to seven years. If you're working on a really long goal, so that you can have fun climbing, right? One thing, talk to Heather about is that okay, so she had this negative self talk, you get frustrated? Why? You know what, why is it happening? Well, it's because I didn't achieve or progress as much as you thought you would. And that might be even I'm working out a crux sequence, right? Maybe make no progress like she was working on. I think China Doll at the trad route, she climbed in Boulder Canyon, and was able to make certain crux moves and then go there another day and have sort of negative progress in a sense, and getting frustrated about it says, well, let's look at it this in pragmatic way, like, you got the rock. It's not animate, you know, it's an inanimate object, that route has a certain level of skill that's needed. 

Kris Hampton  26:02

Yep. 

Arno Ilgner  26:04

And obviously, your skill isn't up to par with the challenge that you're facing right?

Kris Hampton  26:10

Right.

Arno Ilgner  26:11

 So when we get frustrated, essentially, we want whatever's missing, that learning, for no effort. Right? 

Kris Hampton  26:18

Yep. Totally. 

Arno Ilgner  26:18

Cuz it's just a rock. You know? Yeah, and so it kind of points toward a way that we we can be kind of immature in, in our process of dealing with stress and challenges. So like, I listened to a podcast that, you know, Tim Ferriss did with Chris Summers, that, I think, you know, with Gymnastic Bodies. And in one place, he said that there's a difference between mature athletes and immature athletes. Yeah, mature athletes understand that every kind every bit of success that they have, requires work. 

Kris Hampton  26:57

Mm hmm. 

Arno Ilgner  26:58

So frustration, essentially, is wanting that to have that work done without wanting to have achieved end result without doing that work.

Kris Hampton  27:08

Right. 

Arno Ilgner  27:09

And that's just an immature way that that we approach challenges. And it tends to be largely unconscious, because the ego is in there wants that achievement. 

Kris Hampton  27:19

Yep.

Arno Ilgner  27:20

The quicker the better, so you can feel good about itself. 

Kris Hampton  27:23

Yeah. 

Arno Ilgner  27:25

So once, once I started, you know, talking with Heather about this, this whole structure about the ego, how it needs that achievement, motivation, then it causes us to create expectations all around the end result. And then what it does is it causes our attention to be focused in the future, and not on in the moment on what we actually need to do and learn to achieve the goal.

Kris Hampton  27:54

So there are there actionable things that you worked on with Heather, to kind of start changing that, you know, that what she was being motivated by, you know, it's it's not as simple as just saying, Oh, you need to focus on this instead. That's not the end of it.

Arno Ilgner  28:15

Like, like we talked about a moment ago, you got to find a way to make a drill or something actionable. 

Kris Hampton  28:20

Yeah. 

Arno Ilgner  28:21

So it's, it's not like she was not enjoying the learning process. She was, she loved the learning process. Early on with a project.

Kris Hampton  28:31

Right.

Arno Ilgner  28:32

 The struggle usually comes when we say, Okay, I think I know enough to start giving a redpoint effort.

Kris Hampton  28:38

Right. 

Arno Ilgner  28:39

Because then you create expectation about, well, I should be able to redpoint this time or the next time or next time. 

Kris Hampton  28:46

Yeah.

Arno Ilgner  28:46

 And then that causes a frustration and a negative self talk when you're not making the process or meeting those expectations. So, so that was kind of the intellectual way of her understanding that it's not productive for her to be thinking in the way that she was thinking, equating herself worth with achievement and creating these kinds of expectations. And then we kind of structured some, some tools for her to actually apply and see what kind of an effect that had. So the first thing is that she needed to be able to realize that she's more than just her herself up there on a climb. Like, our ego tends to think it's just us, you know, nobody else is experiencing this...

Kris Hampton  29:46

Right, I'm the only person who's ever gone through right situation. Yeah.

Arno Ilgner  29:49

And so it said that the first thing you need to do is kind of get grounded and expand beyond that limited state. 

Kris Hampton  29:59

Yep. 

Arno Ilgner  30:00

And I said that the way to do that is you need to tell your belayer...

Kris Hampton  30:05

Yeah, that's super important.

Arno Ilgner  30:07

To let let you know that you're part of a support group here, you're, you're part of this team, that's a climber belayer, you're, you're part of nature, you're part of the larger climbing community. And so, set the heavier, make sure your belyer knows this, and then tells you something very specific. Doesn't tell you what you need to do, or did you shouldn't get frustrated but to says, breathe, relax, I'm here for you. 

Kris Hampton  30:40

Yep. Yep.

Arno Ilgner  30:41

You know, it's just the first to breathing, relax, it connects the athlete back to the body, getting starting to get their attention out of their head. And woe is me kind of mentality.

Kris Hampton  30:55

Right.

Arno Ilgner  30:56

 So get connected back with the body. And then realizing that you're, you have a support team here, sometimes we need to just take a moment to take a breath and, and get grounded again, and connected with..

Kris Hampton  31:11

Yeah.

Arno Ilgner  31:12

...with our belayer. 

Kris Hampton  31:13

Yep. 

Arno Ilgner  31:15

And then see if she can identify what the limiting thought was, you know, maybe it's ego related, maybe a self worth or oriented. And then instead of like fighting it, just allow it to be there. Like, you don't have to get rid of it, you know, thinking that it's bad because you had this thought, but rather just allow it and then see if you can label it and understand where it came from. 

Kris Hampton  31:44

Yeah. 

Arno Ilgner  31:45

But then start shifting into, you know, shift that negative self talk where that frustration into curiosity.

Kris Hampton  31:53

Right.

Arno Ilgner  31:55

By just saying, Okay, what, what happened? What can I do differently?

Kris Hampton  32:01

How can I improve my situation?

Arno Ilgner  32:02

Yeah. And so, initially, you know, you might you fall and you might have a fault thought, like, I suck. Okay, well, that's a statement and tends to not leave any options for moving beyond it. 

Kris Hampton  32:17

Right. 

Arno Ilgner  32:18

Whereas, curiosities about questions, questions are open, you know, what do I need to do differently? What happened to cause the fall in it engages your attention in a situation that where you can kind of work with it, and, and find a way to change your plan? You know, it's like, again, we're, we're to part of the situation that can change their claim is going to stay the same? 

Kris Hampton  32:42

Yep.

Arno Ilgner  32:42

 So we're looking at how we need to place our feet differently or apply our energy differently or use different handholds or sequences, so that we can rise to the level of the challenge of the climb.  Mm hmm. Yeah, like that. So you have a physical reset, which is... Yes.

Kris Hampton  33:03

...breathe. And then relax. lets you get into that space where you can start asking questions about what it is that's going on. 

Arno Ilgner  33:14

Yep. 

Kris Hampton  33:14

You know, and then and something I really like. And I say often is, you know, when someone's going into a crux section, or they're nervous about something, I like to say, "I'm with you." 

Arno Ilgner  33:26

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  33:26

And I like to hear my belayer too. And I'm glad you brought up having that conversation, before you leave the ground is almost every time I leave the ground, especially on something that's going to be difficult for me, I have a conversation with my belayer about the entire route. Like, if you know, I might struggle here. Here's what I need at this part. You know, let me know you're there when I'm at this spot, you know, and that way, I know that I'm connected to somebody I can put that totally out of my head and I can really focus on what's happening. They're right there with me.

Arno Ilgner  34:03

 You can also you know, tell them specifically how you'd like to be coached. 

Kris Hampton  34:07

Yeah.

Arno Ilgner  34:07

If at all. 

Kris Hampton  34:08

Yep. 

Arno Ilgner  34:08

You know, particularly important in relationships.

Kris Hampton  34:11

Yeah. So did did you work with Chris at all on this? Or did Heather just relay this stuff to Chris and have him talk to her that way?

Arno Ilgner  34:20

Chris? Oh...

Kris Hampton  34:21

Her husband.

Arno Ilgner  34:22

...her husband. 

Kris Hampton  34:22

Yeah. 

Arno Ilgner  34:23

No, I just told Heather she needs to whoever is blaming her because it's not always Chris. She said you need to know instruct your belayer how you want to be coached. And so the typical not coaching and air quotes here is, "you've got it you know" or beta spraying which is all toward end result. 

Kris Hampton  34:45

Yep. 

Arno Ilgner  34:46

Okay, so it's more helpful we found to coach along processes you know, like reminding to breathe or to relax or, or to make the next move or maintain eye contact or something specific that you can do loosen your grip, you know, to do whatever task that you're doing, whether it's climbing or resting more effectively. Yeah, so.

Kris Hampton  35:13

I think it's cool that you, you tell the climber, they can tell their belayer how they want to be coached. Because just the other day, actually, my fiance was on a route. And I know I was, I was being a little harsh. And in the moment, I didn't realize I was being harsh, and partially because that's how I like to be coached. If I'm trying to learn something, I want somebody pointing out my flaws immediately, so I can fix them.  You know, she doesn't like that. But that's where I go with her. And when she came down, she was like, "Can we try something else?" You know, what you're doing comes across to me as negative. So we need to change that. You know, and I think that was huge for me, because then I could approach it totally differently the next time and, and we can work through and find what's going to help her avoid this negative self talk that she had. Right.  That I'm just feeding into, unwittingly, you know, so that's pretty cool that you have them talk to their belayer about it. That's a big important part of being a team, which is what you are, when you when you're on a route.

Arno Ilgner  36:25

It seems like, you know, we're going to coach the way we're motivated. Okay, so if we're, and climbers can tend to be motivated toward end results, and then they coach that way, too. And so they might say something like, let's say, it's a guy and a girl, and the girl is up there, leading on lead, leading on lead, of course, but is freaked out and wants to, you know, down, climb and move and hang on a boat. And the guy says, "No climber fall." You know, and then it freaks out the girl. 

Kris Hampton  37:00

Yep. 

Arno Ilgner  37:01

And, and just makes it more like a traumatic experience. That is not helpful. So it's really important to work out that kind of coaching that you're going to do, you know, beforehand. So you're not just putting someone in a situation that they are not ready for. 

Kris Hampton  37:21

Right. A question for you. So, and I'm asking, because I want to know, your thought on it is, a lot of times, you know, one of the troubles my fiance has is that when she as soon as she gets into a situation that causes her a little bit of anxiety, and we know what those situations are before she leaves the ground, like we can spot them, we know what's going to happen. And as soon as she gets there, her automatic response is just take, and we're trying to shortcut this process or shorten the process. And so what I've been doing is just asking, Are you sure? Do you think that's a valid technique to use? Or? Or is that something that might be making it worse for her? 

Arno Ilgner  38:09

No, I think it's fine. As long as it's worked out beforehand, like say, "Look, you know, when you get up there, you're gonna say take right?"

Kris Hampton  38:18

Yep. 

Arno Ilgner  38:19

Okay, we got that agreement. 

Kris Hampton  38:20

Yeah, we've been having this conversation. Yeah.

Arno Ilgner  38:22

Now, is it? Okay, when you say that for me to say? Can you delay for a second? Or? Or can you delay for five seconds? Before? You know, I will take and honor your request, if you want me to, but can we step into that by first seeing if you can just stay there for five seconds? And if I if she said no, I don't think I can do five seconds. How about four? You know, you find a small enough increment that she's willing to agree to. 

Kris Hampton  38:58

Right.

Arno Ilgner  38:58

So that you can get her to engage that and what will happen is then when she can stay for seconds, then next time, she might be able to stay 10 right and agree to that. Or it might be well can you fall instead of taking? Or can you down climb to where you're taking a fall that you're willing to take you know, she might be too far up above and wants to down climb and hang can you just down climb and fall when your two moves above the bolt or something like that? 

Kris Hampton  39:30

 Yeah. 

Arno Ilgner  39:31

But the really important thing would working with anybody is to find an actionable step that they are actually can take out of their comfort zone. And it's different for everybody.

Kris Hampton  39:41

Yeah. So another question. This is a little kind of in another direction. This one actually is about me, because I do love the process. And I have some clients who also really love the process and sometimes I'm not sure when to like flip that switch, because I like the process of learning moves and, and learning the more efficient ways. Is there a way to identify when you should be going for that, that end result? Or? Or do you just let the process take you there every time?

Arno Ilgner  40:24

I don't know that there's a definitive answer for that. It's probably we, we each need to find out what works best for us. But maybe, maybe something that can help is, is just being aware if you're just stay in working the process, because it's comfortable to do that. Like there's such a strong draw for all of us to be in our comfort zone. And if we're working around then, and we'd really like working around in the process, and we never test ourselves. 

Kris Hampton  41:00

Right.

Arno Ilgner  41:01

Then we're sort of staying in our comfort zone still. 

Kris Hampton  41:04

Yeah. 

Arno Ilgner  41:05

So you might say, Well, I think I'm ready to do a redpoint effort. Let's see what happens. Well, if you did with five hangs, and maybe you need to go back and work the process some more. 

Kris Hampton  41:16

Yeah. 

Arno Ilgner  41:16

You know, and then after some time with that, then you can go back and do another redpoint effort. Maybe get it with one hang. 

Kris Hampton  41:24

Yeah. So just constantly ask questions reevaluate.

Arno Ilgner  41:28

Yeah, and just a lot of lot of did. I mean, we're talking to mental training, right. So a lot of it is becoming more aware of our motivation, and what's going on in our head that can just either that's keeping us in our comfort zone, or is actually moving us into distress and, and dealing with the challenge, and that might be working on the process, or it might be testing ourselves under a redpoint effort.

Kris Hampton  41:57

Right, right. So, you know, back to Heather's case, now that I've kind of taken over here, and had you give me my own little, little session here. How do you feel she was progressing through that? Or how did she feel she was progressing through it?

Arno Ilgner  42:15

Well, we, we've been talking on the phone about weekly, you know, since she, since about early September. And so so the did negative self talk all around, self worth issue types of things was a real issue during redpoint efforts, like we talked about.

Kris Hampton  42:38

And so, and not not to totally cut you off here. But just in case, people are listening who don't know, Heather's not just, you know, a random climber, she's a, she's a really good climber, one of the best climbers in the country, who climbs you know, she's done 5.14 trad, she's done 5.14 sport, right. And she's just a high level, all around climber. So, so if you think that you're alone, at 5.11, having self worth issues or negative self talk, it's not true. You know, it happens at these high levels as well.

Arno Ilgner  43:12

And I would say that happens even more for elite athletes, because they have more pressures from sponsors and expectations from others, and can really benefit from addressing these kinds of issues.

Kris Hampton  43:27

So okay, since I cut you off...

Arno Ilgner  43:30

Yeah, she was working, you know, she had been on Simply Read. I think a few years ago, she said. 

Kris Hampton  43:37

13d in Rifle

Arno Ilgner  43:39

13d, and she wanted to go back, and I guess clean up that project, you know, see if she could send it. And so she worked on it, I think two or three visits to the rifle and was able to send it, end of September. So the feedback she gave me was that she was able to achieve it pretty quickly. And with more of a calm and focused mind, good, you know, less negative self talk by applying the tools that we went over. And a big part of that is understanding that we might be able to achieve a goal just as fast if we're frustrated versus curious. 

Kris Hampton  44:23

Right.

Arno Ilgner  44:24

 You want to have this frustration experience? And then just feel great when you achieved an end goal, or do you want the whole thing to be more enjoyable?

Kris Hampton  44:35

Yeah. And you never know where that frustration might be holding you back, you know, if it's the, if it's your go to mode, then maybe you aren't aware of how you could climb if you weren't in that state all the time. You know, so it's, it's really easy to say, Well, I might climb frustrated, but I climb 12c or whatever. How do you know that if you're feeling much better about yourself About your climbing, you won't be climbing 13a.

Arno Ilgner  45:02

Right.

Kris Hampton  45:03

You know, you can't know unless you make effort to change those things and try and see.

Arno Ilgner  45:08

Yeah, consider that mental training at least the way warriors way approaches It is about attention. Okay. So if our attention is on frustration, we're not solving problems. 

Kris Hampton  45:22

Yeah.

Arno Ilgner  45:23

 Right?

Kris Hampton  45:24

 Yeah. 

Arno Ilgner  45:24

If our attention is on curiosity, then we're digging into the situation, digging into her mind digging into her body digging into the rock climb itself. So we can solve those problems. And we need to solve those problems in order to do that work in order to achieve the goal. It's just no two ways around it. 

Kris Hampton  45:44

Yeah, you know, something that I I employ with my own climbing, and I urge a lot of my clients to do, and I actually just started a new project like this yesterday, that I like to find a route or boulder problem or something near the beginning of each season, that is, totally my anti-style might be something that I know is very height dependent. And is really incredibly difficult for me, but is at a relatively low grade, you know, and a couple of seasons ago, I climbed 5.14, yesterday, I started working on a 12d, that I was totally stoked to, to be able to do all the moves on. Because I tried it a decade ago and got totally shut down on four moves, I think. And yesterday, I was able to come up with interesting creative beta to make these giant reaches that I can't even physically span work for me. And, and I really love that because it early in the season, it takes me out of that, you know, that expectation of climbing 5.14 like, I want to climb 5.14 again, and it gets me right back to I want to challenge myself, you know, and I want to work through these problems that each route throws at me individually. 

Arno Ilgner  47:08

Right. 

Kris Hampton  47:08

You know, and so I think that's an important tool for me and for a lot of my clients is to push yourself.

Arno Ilgner  47:14

Yeah, I think you're describing, you know, let's look at weaknesses. And something that's not going to be something that we're particularly skilled at then. And let's work on it, you know, let's improve that. So that overall, we can be better athletes. And, again, it's so easy to fall into sort of a comfort based motivation to feed ego, to just do things that we're, we know we're good at.

Kris Hampton  47:44

Yeah, yeah. And as a byproduct, it takes I think it puts me in a good place. Like, it sets me up well, for the season and not being so goal motivated, because I know, I could go that way, if I allowed myself, you know, and really started thinking more about the numbers. And it's hard not to sometimes I mean, that we're surrounded by it. So...

Arno Ilgner  48:06

Yeah, I mean, it it. Again, you know, we want to do both. 

Kris Hampton  48:12

Mm hmm. 

Arno Ilgner  48:13

You know, having a goal can really focus us on son, give us a vision for the kind of training that we want to do and need to do. But then be psyched about doing that training in the climbing elite. You there. 

Kris Hampton  48:29

Yep. And kind of this just popped into my head, I'm, I'm jumping all over the place here. But rewinding back to something we talked about a little bit earlier. We were talking about comparison, and that leading to this goal motivation. And then do you find that you can take that comparison and use it in a healthy way similar to how a goal, an end goal can also lead you into the process? Because I definitely find that I compare, but I don't think I do it in an unhealthy way.

Arno Ilgner  49:08

I think so.

Kris Hampton  49:12

But I'd be willing to work on that if... if that something that might help.

Arno Ilgner  49:15

Well, I think we can use others other people's accomplishments as examples of what is possible for us. I think we were constantly doing that. Anyway, were...

Kris Hampton  49:29

For sure. 

Arno Ilgner  49:30

We see. We have mentors, you know, that we probably learned from you know, throughout our climbing career, definitely. Yeah. And if we're seeing that as something to strive for, and to make ourselves better, I don't see that as a negative thing. It's when... when we're doing it in a sense to determine our self worth. How worthy am I as a person? Well, it's important just to make self worth a non issue. 

Kris Hampton  49:59

Yeah. 

Arno Ilgner  50:00

Right now, I'm worthy, a worthy human being with all the flaws and skills and abilities I have period was not even an issue. self worth becomes an issue when we go into the external world where we're comparing our abilities and our strengths and weaknesses with those of others. So maybe if we keep it more as an internal, from an internal perspective, seeing other people as an example, for something that we can internally strive and be motivated toward doing similar than that can be helpful.

Kris Hampton  50:37

Cool. So where does it you know, where does it go from here? I know you guys are kind of developing your next levels, you just said, you know, you're the next of the three things that you're really focused on. 

Arno Ilgner  50:49

Right.

Kris Hampton  50:49

 Um, where do you take it from here?

Arno Ilgner  50:52

Well, we take it into the non climbing public, I'm, I'm working on a book for introducing the material to not climbing public and then creating a workshop around that. 

Kris Hampton  51:03

Very cool. 

Arno Ilgner  51:04

But also, there's a lot of things going on in climbing right now, as you know, going into the Olympics. 

Kris Hampton  51:11

Yeah. 

Arno Ilgner  51:11

And so we have several of trainers in the US and three abroad. And collectively, we want to help climbing in a mental training realm to be a great sport to watch in the Olympics and beyond. So, so we're working with USA climbing, working with AMGA and CWA and, and also, there's a international rock climbing Research Association that...

Kris Hampton  51:42

That just had their summit here.

Arno Ilgner  51:45

In August and telluride. And Jeff Lotus and I were there, I did a short presentation on metal training, and Eric Harris was there. And so a lot of people from around the world are, are sharing information. And so they're going to have another one in a couple years in Germany. And I'm working on a research project on measuring attention to do kind of a scientific research project, because everything that that I've done with the material has been, you know, trial and error, but I've never really done something scientific to measure why what we do in the clinics, actually, how it tangibly benefits, climbers.

Kris Hampton  52:30

Some people need those, those studies and numbers to believe it. So I don't I don't think it's a bad idea to have that.

Arno Ilgner  52:36

No, I think it's great. And, you know, I, I can see the benefits from the students that go through the clinics, but 

Kris Hampton  52:43

Right.

Arno Ilgner  52:43

I'd also like to understand a little bit more scientifically myself about why it's, what we're doing is beneficial.

Kris Hampton  52:49

Yeah. Cool. 

Arno Ilgner  52:51

So we're working with that

Kris Hampton  52:52

You've got your hands full.

Arno Ilgner  52:54

Yeah. And, and then that's gonna, you know, lead into, you know, working more with teams, climbing teams that are doing a training for moving, you know, moving toward the Olympics.

Kris Hampton  53:07

Yeah. Super cool. Super cool. And where can people kind of find you? I know, you do clinics all over the place? Is there like a master schedule online on your website? Or something like that?

Arno Ilgner  53:20

Yes. warriorsway.com. 

Kris Hampton  53:23

Yeah, and that's you and all your other trainers as well?

Arno Ilgner  53:26

Yeah, we, I post all of their their trainings on our event page. And we have trainer in Brazil, one in Spain, and one in Mexico. And then including myself, we have eight in the US, you know, spread around the country from California to New River Gorge. 

Kris Hampton  53:45

Yep. 

Arno Ilgner  53:46

So, you know, we can do there's clinic schedules on upcoming events, there can also do individual training, one to one, you know, via phone and email, it's helpful to have in like, in person session first. 

Kris Hampton  53:58

Sure. 

Arno Ilgner  53:59

You know, to have gone maybe through a clinic, you know, somewhere in you know, a person's local area. And then, and that's what you did with Heather, basically. Yeah, that's what we did with her. So, yeah, good. It's nice to be able to have more trainers, you know, so that...

Kris Hampton  54:17

yeah, spread the word around.

Arno Ilgner  54:18

Yeah, it can be available in more places more frequently.

Kris Hampton  54:21

Yeah. It's, it's cool for me to hear what it is that you guys are doing outside of the, you know, say falling clinics and things like that, that I've heard about for years. And I really like the direction that you've kind of outlined here, you know, of, of mindfulness and in talking about motivation, and where your motivation lies and how to move it into another direction. I think that's something that's could be used by almost everybody that I've ever climbed with. You know, it's pretty rare that I've climbed with someone, myself included. who couldn't use that that sort of training or that sort of work in some way, shape or form?

Arno Ilgner  55:10

Yeah, I think everybody can benefit from it to varying degrees. The challenge with mental training is that a lot of people don't think they need it. And they have preconceived ideas about what they're going, how they're going to benefit. And maybe they have same sort of things with physical training. But with mental training, you could even read the Rock Warriors Way book, or Espresso Lessons and missing, understand what it's saying, because you're just at an intellectual level when you're reading, right, unless you go to a clinic with a trained trainer, that can help you understand the material. And the reason I'm saying that is I've seen people that actually say, I read Rock Warriors Way, just go for it. 

Kris Hampton  56:02

Yeah. 

Arno Ilgner  56:03

And that's not teaches, yeah, it's more, you need to take an appropriate risk, you need to understand incremental learning process. And all of that has to do with developing awareness and understanding your motivation. And how to focus your attention better.

Kris Hampton  56:19

That's really cool. I'll definitely be sending people your way. Because I think that I come across that with a lot of clients who are goal motivated and get stuck because of it and have a hard time altering their motivation. And, you know, knowing that that's something that you work with, and, and are having success working with. And I'll be sending people your way for sure. to work on that kind of thing. So I think it's a huge part of climbing.

Arno Ilgner  56:50

Yeah, it is. I mean, it's the physical part, the mental part. You know, being out in nature, it's can, if we work in all of those areas, we can have an overall much better climbing experience.

Kris Hampton  57:04

Yeah, for sure. Awesome. Well, thanks for sitting down with me. I know things are starting to get a little out here in the background where Rocktoberfest and it's just starting to ramp up a little bit. So thanks for taking time out and sit down. This is a ton of fun. We get a nice talk, and we can definitely do it again. So...

Arno Ilgner  57:21

Sounds great, Kris, thanks. Thanks Arno.

Kris Hampton  57:25

Wow, Big thanks to Arno for sitting down with us. Again, taking time out of his busy Rocktoberfest schedule. I really appreciate it. And like I said, before, Arno's got this thing dialed in. And I think we all have quite a bit to learn from this process versus goal based motivation that we talked about here. And it's something that I thought I really had pretty dialed in and, and I don't think I do anymore, I think I've still got quite a bit to learn. And I'm glad Arno exposed that because I'd like to go into every situation that way. You can check Arno out at warriorsway.com. And he's got trainers all over the country and elsewhere in the world as well. So if you're looking for some help mentally, tactically how to approach your the challenges that you're finding, then definitely reach out to Arno at warriorsway.com. And as far as we go here at the Power Company, I've got shirts up on the website, by Thanksgiving, they're actually up there now. They're just not live for you guys until I have my shipping worked out. So those will be up in the next week or so. We've still got some openings in our pre written app plans. If you're interested in those, check us out. And if you want to become a patron of the podcast we appreciate all the patrons we've got so far. You can do that at patreon.com/powercompanypodcast. And the best thing that you can do for us if you want to help out is share is on your social medias. You can find us on the Facebook's you can find us on the Instagrams but no Twitters - we don't tweet, we scream like eagles.