Prerna Dangi | Finding Her Power

Every summer, Kris emcees the International Climbers Festival here in Lander, Wyoming. One of his favorite parts of doing the event is being able to introduce the keynote speakers. It was quite a lineup this year, with big names like Chris Kalous and Brittany Goris. But it was one of the opening speakers who ended up stealing the show: Indian climber and force of nature, Prerna Dangi.

Photo: Kiran Kallur

Prerna’s time in Lander was just one of many stops she’s making this year on a big climbing trip throughout the US. With plenty of hours logged in the alpine, on a rope, and over crash pads, she’s got experience and goals on ice, rock, and beyond. But her biggest goal of all — and the one she’s certainly dedicating the most to — is to continue building an empowered community of female climbers in India.

Photo: Kiran Kallur

Prerna climbing in Maple Canyon. | Photo: Veronica Baker

DISCUSSED IN THIS EPISODE:

• How Prerna got her start in climbing.

• The climbing scene in India and how it differs from here in the US.

• The ongoing development of climbing in India.

• How organizations like CLAW (Climb Like a Woman) are empowering women in India to climb.

• How Prerna is finding her power — as a climber, a role model, and a community leader.

FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Finding-Her-Power-Prerna-Dangi

Wed, 8/10 11:49AM • 1:12:26

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

climbing, climbers, india, climb, routes, climber, sport, people, community, women, crag, happening, rock climbing, bouldering, hard, mountaineering, gym, delhi, friends, good

SPEAKERS

Prerna Dangi, Kris Hampton

Prerna Dangi  00:08

One of the reasons why history is important is because it's being made in India right now. And me, and way more people than me, my friends, are doing it.

Kris Hampton  00:37

What's up, everybody? I'm your host, Kris Hampton. Welcome to the Power Company Podcast brought to you by powercompanyclimbing.com. Maybe I should say welcome back for this episode. And it's good to be back. I'm not going to dilly-dally here because I know you want to get into this thing. But I just want to let you know that while we've been on break over here, the Patron Podcast has not - that crew has been getting Board Meetings every month, I think they've got over 40 of them now. And going forward, we'll be putting out two episodes per month here on our regular feed, and two episodes per month just for the Patrons. By becoming a Patron, for as little as $3 a month you're helping to keep this thing sponsor-free. You're helping me to continue doing these interviews in-person. And honestly, after two years of recording remotely for other shows, I can say with 100% certainty that, at least in my opinion, in-person interviews are superior in every single way. The audio is better, the flow of the conversation is better, and the connection with the guest is so much better. You can support us and get bonus episodes at patreon.com/powercompanypodcast. Or you can click the link right there in your pocket supercomputer. Okay. I just recently, emceed the International Climbers Festival here in Lander. And every year, I look forward to introducing the keynote speakers. And we had a great lineup this year. But it was one of the opening speakers, the folks who are basically warming up the crowd for the keynotes, who, in my opinion, stole the show. Today's guest is Prerna Dangi, an Indian climber and force of nature. While at the festival with Veronica from The Climbing Initiative, who you can hear more from in Episode 258, Prerna and I sat down to discuss the climbing scene in India and how it differs from here in the States, professional climbing versus advocacy and community building, and how she's finding her power. And if she's just finding it now, well, I am certainly tuned in to see what she does in the future. Let's get into it.

Kris Hampton  03:04

You know, I don't usually do a lot of like, "How did you get into climbing?" stuff with folks but, but being from India, and I know nothing about the Indian climbing scene, I would love to hear a little bit about how you found climbing and got into it.

03:24

Well, I was fortunate enough to go to a college where there was a climbing wall. If I look back to like, how I truly found climbing, it's probably from my village in Uttarakhand, where, you know, everybody climbs trees to get fruits and to just hang out, that's something that we did as kids. So outdoors, which is otherwise not a very accessible thing to do, to be in, in India was easily available to me because I had a backyard in the mountains, despite being a kid brought up in Delhi, which is a big city. So I think that's where I picked up the movement of, you know, vertical ascending, and I was, I've always been into sports. I was playing basketball for university. And in our workouts, I would feel the need to do pull ups for no reason at all. And I think I was really looking for something that challenged me physically more than the conventional sports that I had been playing and I had also been playing a lot of team sports. So somewhere maybe I wanted more individualistic where I could do whatever the hell I wanted with myself. And when I first... like it was, it was the classic "saw a climbing wall, fell in love at first sight" kind of a thing, never looked back. Like, it was also because it was such a great combination of just, you know, strength and flexibility and ,and make it look good, graceful. And I really, I really liked that. I mean, of course when I saw my first time that I was good at it, and you know, initially, you'd like to do things that you're good at, but then I had this years and years of plateau, which, which taught me a lot more about climbing. So, yeah, that's, that's how I started. And I think I've been climbing for 10 years. So later, when I began thinking about "How much of this do I see in my life and why can't I think of my life without climbing?", I think it was because since I was a kid, I developed such a strong attachment to movement, that I can not fathom my life without it. Like, you know, if I get a regular job in India.

Kris Hampton  05:58

How far into climbing did you think "I can't see my life without this?"

Prerna Dangi  06:04

Well, I think my first year of climbing, but well, I was just out of college, I found climbing in college. And then I was, you know, it was like something that I saw myself doing till I got really old, as well. But...

Kris Hampton  06:23

You looked directly at me when you said "getting old..." Now a question for you, though: How do you go, and what was the first experience like going, from college wall to actually taking it outside? Was there, was there a mentor that did that for you? Was it something you figured out on your own?

Prerna Dangi  06:48

I figured that out on my own pretty much. There were all these little pockets of climbers everywhere. At that moment, since I was in Delhi, I connected with the other climbers in Delhi. There was another outdoor wall by the IMF (Indian Mountaineering Foundation), which is our apex mountaineering body that happens to have a wall that they don't care a lot about. But that place really brought together a community for Delhi climbers. And, you know, that's where more experienced climbers played. And they were going to Hampi. And they were planning trips to Badami. And I was like... well, I think I saw very early on that indoor climbing is just a means of being more prepared to do outdoor climbing, which I totally thought is the real shit. Yeah, from the get-go, I was like, I want to do this outside. But then I went to Hampi. And you don't have time to think on a route there, because the crystal is, the crystals are like really, the granite it's really sharp. And I barely climbed because my fingers were, you know, so torn from also my really bad footwork. So yeah, it was, it was a great lesson that way, that you need it - the indoors. I need to train, I need to understand this movement. It's also something I can do way more often than doing Hampi trips.

Kris Hampton  08:18

What's interesting in the, in the US, a lot of what I see is that there's this division between the, or at least historically there has been that's, that's breaking down, but there's been this division between the people who are, who love indoor climbing, and the people who love outdoor climbing and there's almost been this pattern of outdoor climbers, looking down on the indoor climbers. Again, that's, that's breaking down, but the adventure side of climbing has always felt removed from the gym here in the US. Is it more connected in India? Because you you immediately went from gym to "We have, there's this mountaineering association," and the gym is not often connected with mountaineering here in the US. So is the gym and the adventure connected?

Prerna Dangi  09:18

I think you've asked me two things I'll answer. The first answer is that in India, as a climber, like 10 years ago when I started, you did not - despite the fact that we did have a gym, a climbing wall - we didn't have a lot of options like you. You had to do everything because that's, that is available. So the same climbers who are like, who I'm climbing with indoors, are people who I go outdoors with. There is not enough folks yet that we can draw that line in between. And I also feel that because there is just so much outdoors that can be climbed, that can be developed, and it's such a great reason to get out, like, our indoor climbing scene isn't that, you know... like we don't have lead gyms, there's not even a single lead gym that is accessible to public in India. There's a gym... that's going to change soon, hopefully, but we have maybe three or maybe five indoor bouldering gyms. So, you know, to even have a space where you can connect to the sport deeply and just keep doing it without getting bored, without, you know, it becoming monotonous - that's, you know, that wasn't available to us, isn't available to us as much. But yes, I do think that there's people who still like to climb indoors and I completely... I think once our commercial climbing gyms started coming up in India, we had this change where, who were hired at these gyms? People who had experience climbing. All the people who had experience were like the strong climbers in the country. And they were, now it was their job to introduce complete beginners into the sport, which is something that was not happening as organically because the strong climbers were always out climbing, and their interaction with, you know, the ones who wanted to climb was very minimal. You would only see them crushing at our walls, you would be intimidated to go and talk to them, you'd probably not get on something that they were trying, you know? So I think that has changed the space to be way more welcoming. And because we can't run a gym with just the 20 strong climbers in the country, right? And that's definitely led us to a shift in, in just creating a more welcoming space in climbing and saying that, "Hey. Come climb, wherever you want to climb. For fun."

Prerna Dangi  09:39

Yeah. So when I was started climbing here in the US, the scene was already maybe a little bigger than what you're describing in India now. But, but it shared some similarities in that, you know, there were the strong, intimidating climbers, and they were going outside and everyone else kind of stayed in the gym. And, you know, if you were brave enough to talk to them, or to try the things they were trying, then maybe they would take you under their wing and take you outside. One of the things I noticed in that scene back then, especially when compared to today, is that there were very few women. Today that's, that's shifting in a, in a really amazing way. And you know, I said this at the keynote speakers the other night, it's this generation of strong and dynamic women who are really taking on the history of the sport and making it their own. What was it like, or what's it like now, in India? Is it a highly male-dominated thingsstill? Are there many women? What's it look like?

Prerna Dangi  13:43

I can start with when I started climbing. And this goes back to your previous question, where the climbing gym connects to a mountaineering organization, where I didn't have any role models from the rock climbing community - female role models. As the only, you know, Indian mountaineers - female mountaineers - that we could look up to was Bachendri Pal, who was the first Indian woman to do Everest, right. So that I think, reflects on how heavy the culture of mountaineering has been for India and how that has, that is what climbing in Indian means, and meant for a very long time. And rock climbing, has, you know, which started more in the 90s, has had its own, I would say, upbringing. And that has been fueled by local leaders, unlike mountaineering where a lot of it was, a lot of that was done was by Western climbers. So even as we do mountaineering in our country, there's a lot of Western legacy that we carry, our mountains' histories carry. And rock climbing has been this unique challenge and opportunity to develop, you know, a sport in our own community, in our own crags, by our own hands. So, I thought a lot about how there was not like, not enough strong women who were climbing, and I really wished that there was somebody who was climbing as hard as the guys. These guys were also my friends, right? But it was really hard for me to wrap my head around how I can be like them. And after one point, I was like, "I don't want to be like them." I don't, from like, "I don't think I can be like them," too. "I, I can be my own version." But all of that was very, like, it was a lonely place. And I had to have a thick skin and just move on from whether it's casual comments, or things that were unsolicited-ly, like, said to me about my climbing or my future, or just anybody telling me what I should do. Which is completely unnecessary. I mean, I feel like it's okay that it happened with me, and that's my journey and I'm proud of it, but nobody deserves to go through that. And in that process, I figured that, I started moving towards becoming somebody who I did not have. And it's not something that I intended, but just unintentionally, by holding my own space and having that thick skin, and being like, "You can say whatever you want, I'm still going to be here doing my thing." And, you know, it just happened.

Kris Hampton  17:00

I love that. I want to dig into so many parts of that. But first, I want to know: you said it wasn't intentional, but now you're obviously cognizant of it, you know, you understand that you're in that position. Do you feel pressure being in that position?

Prerna Dangi  17:25

I do, I think, I think it comes in the way of my, me being my own person, and then me having to be somebody for someone else. And I'm still pretty goofy and like, I make mistakes. I'm not, I am not the best... I'm not the ideal role model by like, you know, normal standards. I drink beer - that's not good for an Indian woman. No, I'm just joking. Yeah, I think, I think we have a very, you know, our culture has this idea of really idolizing people who are good at something. And just because I'm good at rock climbing doesn't mean I have to be good at everything, especially making chipatis, which is expected out of a classic, you know, Indian woman, but... it's, the pressure's there, but because I'm cognizant of it, I manage, I manage it. But it does scare me. Like, for example, just the fact that I am trying to do, I am scared of saying my project out loud, of like, you know, doing an 8b+, so a 5.14a, and why is that? Like, why should I be scared of even trying to push that? And somewhere it's also like the pressure of what my climbing community then will expect out of me, and in failing to, you know, meet those expectations. And that's just the web of expectations, which it is. But I want to answer, I want to add to my answer that you asked previously about the climbing scene, because I didn't actually give credit to the women who were doing something. It's not like there weren't any women. So I think that what happened in the 90s when the guys started climbing - Mohit Oberoi, Dini, a bunch of folks from the Bangalore scene and the Delhi scene - was that the few, few of them who had, who were not stinky enough to have girlfriends and keep them, you know, they had the partners and they came out climbing with, along side, and these women were the few female climbers at that moment. Some of them are still climbing to this date. And that is very rare. Just meeting them is so wholesome, just to know that somebody was there. And I think there was a big gap after the 90s, where the rock revolution sort of started happening in India, where a generation kind of got more caught up with the comp climbing scene, I think that's when the boom in the US was also happening. So, you know, in India, it must have been like, what's the next big thing? And we started having competitions, and somewhere along the line, like, I think outdoor, there were fewer people going outdoors. There were more people doing indoor climbing. Why? Because you probably could do something from getting a medal, you could show it somewhere and get a job. Because climbing was still, recreational climbing was still a very privileged thing. Or it was something that you did because it, you know, defined you and that was... these were individuals who were extremely passionate about it, but still, making a life around climbing was very - wasn't heard of. So... I think the early 2000s was when we had some strong female rock climbers. I know, I know of them only because I was also a comp climber when I started, because everybody was doing it, you know, when we didn't have options. Like I said, earlier, we just did what everyone was doing. And when the opportunity arose to go outdoor climbing, we did that. If there was a comp happening in Delhi, you just did it. In my first comp, I fell from like the third clip because I just learned how to put a draw in and clip the rope. But that's fine, you know. So...

Kris Hampton  21:45

That's one of the things that when, when I first became aware of you, we chatted on Instagram, briefly, a year ago or something, and I was looking through your Instagram and I'm like, "Wow, this woman does everything, every style of climbing possible." You're doing it all the way from comps to big mountain style climbing. And I feel like in the US, people tend to choose one and be defined by that thing. I am a boulderer. I am a sport climber. I am a crack climber - whatever it is. It's interesting to hear that you didn't do that, because there weren't that many options, you know. If you're, if you're a boulderer, how much do you have to do, you know? That's what it sounds like you're saying. How important was it for you and how much did you look toward those women who were there and doing it before you?

Prerna Dangi  22:54

I did not find them until much later because that's the time when the community wasn't so connected, like talking about climbing wasn't a big thing. And I only met like, if I look up, if I Google "women's climbing in India", I don't, I wouldn't probably find a lot of things. But so, it's a good thing too, because I got to actually see them. I got to compete with them - Shanti and Suma. And that was, yeah, that was, that was a cool way to you know, meet somebody who's, who'd been doing this from before you. And... ahh there was  something that I wanted to say... mountaineering. Yeah, I think the reason why my approach to climbing was just, you know, different is also because I started as a mountaineer-oriented climber, I wanted to do mountaineering, and then I broke it down to rock climbing, and I was like, "Okay, I need to excel in all these things." And because at this point, I'm in college, and I have to, you know, train and the idea of training, understanding all of that meant that I do whatever I can when somebody is taking me, and if there's somebody who's better than me at any of these disciplines, I will like try to gain from them. So I was training indoors at the walls, and when the opportunity arose, I was bouldering outside. But also because, you know, there's Hampi - it's, it's a developed bouldering mecca and of course, I would want to go there even if, even if I was a sport climber, but like you said, I didn't have the option to choose to be a sport climber, we just went where there was climbing. That's what people still do. People take up the sport if they get exposed through the gyms, they, you know, find what is appealing to them, usually it's bouldering at the moment. Like I think across the globe, too, bouldering is what is picking up so much because it's the easiest to access.

Kris Hampton  25:08

I have a question about that, actually. You, a few minutes ago you said you're nervous to put your goals out there. But then five seconds later you've, you said your goal. And I think, you know, that's obviously something you've been wrestling with a little bit and are figuring out. Does that stem from there not being a really clear progression of things to do up to that level in India? And I ask this because when you look at something like the Red River Gorge in the 2000s, when I was, when I was trying to climb harder grades, there was almost a ceiling where there weren't many of the next grade to choose from. But then if we look at the Frankenjura, where Alex Megos learned to climb, there's something like, you know, 2000 routes harder than 8a+, you know, so lots to choose from at every grade. Is there much to choose from to progress in India for you?

Prerna Dangi  26:23

Thanks for noting that. I think that you've kind of answered that question yourself. Because that really is the reason maybe why I... that is one of the reasons why I hesitate in saying my goal out loud. Because it's hard to justify that I can even try it. Or I can like think about climbing it. Because if you ask me my next, my last, my hardest send it's like a redpointed a 7b+ and that was like more a while back. But that definitely is how things are in India right now. Like in Badami, which is our most developed sport climbing crag, which has these harder routes which you can sort of project, there is, there is, maybe... there is of course, Ganesha 8b+, which is like the most...

Kris Hampton  27:27

That's the famous one.

Prerna Dangi  27:28

Yeah, the famous one. And I remember one of our pioneer climbers, Mohit put up a reward of 50,000 Indian rupees for anybody who climbed that route. Just so that, you know, there were people who had that drive who were like, but these are also people who really need money. Yeah, because climbers are not rich at all. Well, that's, that's everywhere. But especially in India, a lot of climbers come from backgrounds that will, even if there were routes, they probably wouldn't be able to travel to those places and climb those routes as much. So not having that sense of progression is one of the many reasons for these kinds of goals to feel as inaccessible. But now that we have, like around me, there is a network of strong women. Comp climbers, and like outdoor climbers, the people, the women that I run CLAW with, are, you know, some of the strongest climbers in the country, Vrinda, Lekha, Gowri, and I am, I'm like 100% sure that they can like really do kick-ass sends. If they were, if more of them were around the climbs. And there is still a sense of intimidation, for trying hard things, for setting a hard goal. I think, I don't know why. Maybe it's because we carry some sort of baggage where we feel like... Yeah, I know exactly what it is. It's us watching videos of this one 8b+ route and seeing the kind of people who do it, right? It's all of these really ripped strong, also very skilled athletes. I remember Paige Claassen came and did the first female ascent of the route and I remember looking up her ape index and thinking, "Ehh, still a long shot." But, you know, it's, it is still a dream to do it. And for the longest time, I was like, "No, I will make do with what I have." Because that's what, that's how you endure, right? Stop complaining, and just make the most happen out of whatever is in front of you. But no, you know, like, it's 2022. And I created the means to get out and find something that I can actually enjoy doing and I'm not pressured into doing because, you know, for whatever reasons. So, yeah, I think that, does that answer your question?

Kris Hampton  30:28

Absolutely. And I love that attitude. When you, when you first said, "make do with what you have, and you know, kind of just deal with it." I thought, "Really, is that, is that where we're headed?" And then, then you flipped it. And I want to know, how do you take - and how are you, because I know you are taking - that attitude of, "We don't just accept what we have and deal with it, we build more things for ourselves." How are you taking that further? You mentioned CLAW, I know you're working with The Climbing Initiative, just glancing around on the internet, you've worked with all sorts of organizations. So it's obvious that you're not just focused on "I want to climb harder." Number one: why are you doing that as well, instead of just focusing on climbing harder? And number two: how does that attitude of, "We don't just accept what we're given," play into it? I feel like I'm only asking you double questions.

Prerna Dangi  31:46

Can you tell me, can you repeat the first one again?

Kris Hampton  31:48

Yeah. So number one: how are you - and why are you - not just focused on climbing harder? Why is it important to you to work with these organizations also?

Prerna Dangi  32:06

Because there is a need for it. And because the only way to grow climbing means pushing these things, pushing the agenda outside of just climbing hard. And when I was starting out and trying to get better at things, I saw a lot of these gaps. I learned a lot from that journey. And I think that I can, you know, fill up those gaps in whatever capacity. If I can do that, then I will try. I also, you know, it's a small community. And the good thing about that is that you know everyone. So maybe because I was also speaking and like sharing my adventures as I was doing them, I managed to connect with like, other folks who were doing the same things. And wherever, wherever I saw that there were people working towards a community... I didn't, I haven't like played a role in all of them, obviously; I'm not the godmother of climbing in India at all. I'm the wicked aunt. No, I'm not - please don't put this in! I'm not that old to be an aunt.

Kris Hampton  33:31

Can we just call this episode "The Wicked Aunt"? 

Prerna Dangi  33:34

Noooo! I'm just 29, I'm not an auntie yet! Well, when I started, I was used to being the youngest everywhere. That was because I was like 21. And I'd, you know, find all my, let's say aged mentors, older mentors. But suddenly, I'm like, not the youngest one anymore, and that's really something I think about, but going back to the point: Yeah, I think that there was just such a need to build community. But it's also something that I couldn't do alone. And there were places where... India is super diverse. I can't go to Bangalore and create community. I'm from Delhi. So I did what I could around where I was, and when somebody needed help, then I offered it. But.. 

Kris Hampton  34:27

Well, you say, "I can't go there and create community. So I'm doing it here." But here you are in the US. I just watched you get on stage and have a whole room full of people in the palm of your hand. So I think you can - and I think you are - going other places and creating communities and building, building what it is you want to see. I think it's really powerful to watch and it, you know, it occurs to me that there, while there were other women when you began, and I'm sure those women were doing amazing things, there are always going to be people who are selfishly focused on their own climbing. And that, you know, for some people, that's totally fine. There are other people, however, who, while they want to improve their own climbing, they also want to - and you said this in the very first sentence of your answer - you said "to grow climbing." Not to grow climbing for myself, not to grow me as a climber, but to grow climbing. I think that's the, that's the real important thread here: is that your while you may not yet be the wicked aunt of climbing in India, that's what it looks like you are forming into. This, this person who wants to build this much bigger thing. 

Prerna Dangi  36:10

Yeah, I think now that I think about it, maybe at some point, I must have, you know, asked myself, "Oh, we don't have like enough routes. Let's say I want to climb something hard in India, but there's not a lot of routes. If I want to get people to bolt some more routes, I don't know how to bolt, I need to find somebody who can teach me how to bolt, but then I also need to be strong. So I need somebody who can teach me how to be stronger, how to be more skilled." And in that process, that process is community building - where we are just working together and exchanging skills. And because somebody did that for me, I, you know, feel that that needs to be done. It was really just filling up gaps, like all the things that we, like, I didn't have. And there was scope to create that, we did that. And one of the biggest things that I didn't have was female friendships in climbing, apart from my one good friend Vrinda, who I trained with the most in Delhi. And we still to this date do it but just - until the BoulderBox climbing gym, which she founded in, you know, in Delhi, which is one of the best spaces to practice climbing in India - until that gym opened, we were still the only two women in Delhi who were like training and going outdoors climbing on our own. 

Kris Hampton  37:41

Wow.

Prerna Dangi  37:42

Otherwise, a lot of - and this was also happening independently somewhere, in Bangalore, maybe, and other places - but a lot of the culture was still the same as the 90s where what I saw was that the women were being taken out by their friends. And for me, who really wanted to, my goal, one of my life goals is to climb in the Himalayas, to put up alpine routes in the Himalayas. That means that my sense of independence was very strong from the beginning. And I really wanted to learn how to do things on my own. And when I started doing that, that's when I wasn't, I was no longer letting people tell me what to do. And I think that it was so strong and powerful, that feeling, that I wanted other women to have it. So, you know, just, like, I can't tell you, I can't explain it exactly. But that one trip, which is catalystic for also CLAW, where me and Vrinda went to Badami in 2018, which is when I did my hardest sport route, and looked at my other project, an 8a route that I was going to come to, we were, we were an anomaly. You know, you wouldn't see that. It's not something, it's not like something I want you to applaud but we felt that just by holding that space and doing that without having to like, talk about it... It was important. It was important for us, it was important for anybody else who came climbing to see that, "Oh, there's two women who have come climbing on their own. They know how to do their shit." And I really wanted to amplify that. And I think that's one of the reasons why CLAW holds such a special heart because, such a special place in our hearts, because we want to empower women to be doing this but on their own, especially on their own, and then make whatever you would like out of it.

Kris Hampton  39:43

I think that comes across immediately when when you start talking. You know, I watched it happen on stage the other night. I'm watching it happen right now. There doesn't seem to be - and this is sort of what I was, have been fishing for, like - is there a division for you, between your climbing and all of this other work that you're doing? And I don't think there is. And I think that's, that's what makes it so powerful and real, is that you just see it all as one big thing: I want, I want to climb hard, too, but I also want everybody else to have these opportunities to climb hard, and these options to choose from and, and I want them to see a woman doing these things on her own so that they know they can do it on their own as well. I think that's, I mean, admirable is not even the strong enough word for, for the attitude that's behind it. It feels like punk rock to me. That's what it feels like. And I fucking love seeing it. You're sitting here in a Climbing Initiative shirt, so I'm curious, what are the challenges that you're seeing in your community that, that organizations like The Climbing Initiative can help with?

Prerna Dangi  41:21

Um, well, since I was initially, since my climbing journey, I've been intentionally aware of the global climbing scene. And, you know, some of the gaps that I saw in why climbing isn't a big sport. Well, one of the reasons is because we're a young community of climbers, it's got, we've started doing the sport much later, right? And so we don't have a big market where brands can exist, where brands can give sponsorships, where there can be athletes who can flourish. I mean, if I think about the rock climbing, like, athletes who have made a living out of just climbing, because a lot of really strong climbers are trying to do that, but there is no blueprint for it. And it is very difficult to access this global network, which plays so heavily in front of us all the time, because I have also grown up, not grown up but grown, looking at the magazines, and the covers, and reading articles about the athletes that are my heroes. But I was like, "How do we bring that for us? How do we create that for us in India?" and it's really difficult because you need to be in on the scene. And for, for example, when you started you said that you, you learned - and a bunch of people learned - a lot about climbing in India at this, in this presentation that I did the other day. But you wouldn't just randomly Google "climbing in India," "Oh, hey, let's look at like if there's any climbing in India." So there is this need for people from our community to be seen. And, you know, for me to be on that stage with Tommy and Brittany and like climbers who are the faces on these magazine covers that we all are used to seeing, that was made possible only because of an organization like TCI where they found us, they seek me out while I was trying to seek someone like them out. And they were like, "Oh, we hear you. And we want to amplify what you're saying." And there was a point where I was like, "I'm not sure I can speak for everyone." I am still. Remember, I'm still the crazy one. So I can say something stupid or, you know, something that's not profound all the time. I do that.

Kris Hampton  44:23

Every single one of us does.

Prerna Dangi  44:26

And so I'm also, I was not very confident if I wanted to always speak for everyone, because I still don't know if I want to. But whatever, I realized there that whatever I have to share is also enough - it's, it's better than nothing. Because how else would, you know, a community, a place like Lander where there's so much climbing - one of, one of the beacons, one of the epitomes of a climbing town - what that looks like is, to share what, you know, to see that; for me, coming from a place like India where we're still... climbing is fringe and climbing is new. And it showed them over there that, "Hey, there are still communities, there are still places where climbing is developing at this pace. There's enough climbing, there's maybe fewer climbers, but they're doing the exact same things." And that's powerful. And I don't know how to connect the dots, but TCI does. And one of the things that I have, in this past weekend after talking to brands, because one of my goals for attending this festival was also to network, and I was like, yeah, like, "Okay, how do I do this? We need to, like, you know, brainstorm about it." But I, after speaking to so many people, I realized that there's just so much need for the global brands to diversify what their athletes look like and to move away from the narrative that "Oh, how strong do you climb?" and that is all that defines you. And now I feel like I can walk up to, you know, the managing directors and heads and say, "Hey, you need somebody like us to be repping your brand and why aren't you doing that already?" Instead of being like, "Hey, do you think that maybe you could...?" you know. And I've definitely gained that perspective to be able to demand what me and a lot of athletes certainly deserve for holding spaces for their own climbing communities and also taking it outside, because I'm here educating you about, about climbing in India, right?

Kris Hampton  47:16

It sounds like you're, you're growing into, or getting more comfortable with, your power.

Prerna Dangi  47:24

Just from the time that I sat in this chair? Yes, definitely. Every minute. I think a lot of it is because of how you are helping me weave this story, as well. It's all you, Kris.

Kris Hampton  47:42

I'm just sitting out here watching it. You're the one doing all the things. You mentioned then that we're a young sport and we are. It maybe feels like an even younger sport in India. I'm just curious, are there crusty old climbers in India like there are here who pushed back against this - this globalization, this commercialization of climbing, this new era of climbers - are there any climbers that are pushing back?

Prerna Dangi  48:21

I don't think so.

Kris Hampton  48:22

That's really fucking good to hear.

Prerna Dangi  48:25

Yeah, I mean these crusty old climbers, if they're still around...

Prerna Dangi  48:33

They, they, you know, they climb stuff which never saw second ascents, like never were never repeated for years. And now when they hear about that happening, they're ecstatic. They're like, "Oh my God, you should go do this and that and this and that and when we go back up there and we get on those routes!" It's insane how, you know it's just like, they are stone masters. We're just like, "Oh my gosh, what were they thinking doing this back then? With, you know, that kind of equipment?" Like, my home crag, which is in Dhauj around Delhi, is one of the established, initially established trad climbing crags. It's like the Gunks but super sandbagged. Even more sandbagged. And these, like, I've climbed with the guy who wrote the guidebook, Mohit Oberoi, and he would tell us about stories. That's the good thing about climbing with the old crusty climbers, although Mohit is not old and crusty. He won't like that, he's still pretty out and about. But, you know, he'd be like, "Oh, we would just climb this with nuts." And maybe if there was like a white climber in town who just happened to be hanging around, who would usually be also a mountaineer, and they like just do a vacation day off rock climbing, would give them like a Friend or two. And then that route would be sent only because there was this one addition. And then that would be all you needed: two Friends, maybe, and a set of nuts. And yeah, so it's...

Kris Hampton  48:36

There's a lot of them here.

Kris Hampton  48:37

I think you're the youngest person ever on this podcast to use "Friends" in that way. 

Prerna Dangi  50:23

You mean camming devices? 

Kris Hampton  50:24

Yeah. I think you're the youngest person ever to say "Friends". I love it.

Prerna Dangi  50:31

I'm old school.

Kris Hampton  50:38

Can we talk about your climbing a little bit? I just want to make sure that we, we touch on what you're doing for you. Because I think you're, you give so much of yourself to growing this community. At least that's what I'm seeing in these, you know, seemingly three minutes that I've known you. Let's talk about your climbing a little bit. And we don't have to go into goals. We don't have to go into any of that. But what I want to know is: you started in a similar way that I did - it was all about being athletic, it was a sport, I appreciated the movement - how are you transferring that into appreciating nature and the adventure and the outdoors? Because for me, that was never the reason I got into it. It's just something I fell in love with later.

Prerna Dangi  51:36

Yeah, it all happened, I think I was hit by everything all at once. Because I went on a mountaineering expedition and I was just like, "I feel so small in this landscape, I can... I need this feeling to make me a better person." So every time I went climbing outdoors, I, I sought it because I needed to realize a lot of, you know, reconsider so many things that would otherwise occupy my brain and because... Initially, it was mountains that had a way of doing that, of humbling you, like we all like to say, but now it's, it can be a frickin' boulder that's, you know, not even five moves, where, which leaves you humbled. And I think, in this day and age, it's really important to be just like, to have that little slap in the face by mother nature. And really, she's the best teacher, too, and at the same time, it makes us realize just how to tread in those spaces. It's made me so, so much more reflective of my of, you know, my footprints. And, my answer... am I in the right direction?

Kris Hampton  53:05

Yeah, I just, I just wanted to know where that connection lies for you. Because I think it's different for everyone, especially when you start climbing in a gym. How do we learn to, and what do we get from going outside climbing - beyond just the athleticism? 

Prerna Dangi  53:26

Yeah, you can't help but notice it, no? 

Kris Hampton  53:29

I mean, I think you're right. Yeah. 

Prerna Dangi  53:32

It's, it's just, we see it in our CLAW event, we bring women out and most of them are from the cities. And Gowri does this nature meditation where we just sit out on the rocks and close our eyes and ears and open our ears to the surrounding sounds and try and hear the farthest thing we can hear. That's the first time that I did something like that intentionally, because that's something that happens organically for me when I'm out climbing, you know, but I see that people need that push. So I know what what you mean, that it's something that can grow on people later on, but it's just so important to remind people to switch off, off from whatever mode they're on, and to switch into just being present. And I think both nature and climbing has such a great way of being present. But I think I want to also add that, you know, when we talk about community and climbing - and my own climbing, especially - I don't think... I think I'm doing all of this so I can climb. Honestly. I mean, I want to be selfish, but the only, in order to be selfish, I still will have to do things which will leave these remnants that will become, that will add to growing the community.

Kris Hampton  55:05

Yeah, I think that's really important to say. I think it's a really important part of, of any of this; we have to be a little selfish in our own love of something, you know, otherwise, it's going to be this labored thing that's going to lead to burnout. Everything I do is selfish. I love having these conversations, I want to have them for myself, I would just as soon turn the mics off and have this conversation. But I, but I know that it can benefit the community and that's why I turn the mics on. Sounds like the same thing with you - that you absolutely love doing this, you need the community around you, you know, so you're going to build it, and then it's going to be there for everyone else.

Prerna Dangi  55:56

I think a very obvious, like, thought that occurs now, when we talk about being selfish, is that the very act of going and finding something to climb that is not in your backyard is selfish, right? When we - me, my friends Bharath and Karan - went out to Spiti to look for ice climbing, we, you know, we went there and we're like, "Oh, you guys have these frozen waterfalls and we want to climb them." That was for us. And then when we see potential we, we tell the place, the locals that hold that place, that, why this is good for you. But really, they don't need it. So many places in India, where there's climbing are extremely remote, extremely sensitive. They might be right next to a village that has, you know, its agricultural scene sorted out so well that they don't actually need that climbing. Because they, if there is climbing and there is tourism, it is only going to hamper the environment there. That's a very present reality that we have to understand and approach with thought. Because yeah, like, like I said, I, as a Delhite - I'm not a local, when I go to Bangalore or around Bangalore. Even the locals of Bangalore are not local to, you know, Badami, this crag that is in the state of Karnataka. So it's really a selfish sport, where we're like, "Oh, look, there's rock!" and then go around and tell the communities that "This rock is great for you." But no, this is great, because I want to recreate here, I want to come here and feel like, let go of all the worries in the world and connect with nature away from my home, but leave all of this impact, but, you know, and call all of that impact tourism, that this is great business for you. So that is a very heavy narrative that we have to accept, as we, you know, explore and develop climbing.

Kris Hampton  56:05

That - you've just blew my mind a little bit, I hadn't really thought about how pervasive it's become, to just assume if we come into your rural area, we have the ability to bring tourism dollars to you - how great is that? It's not always a great thing that could be completely destroying what this community has, has learned to, how they've learned to exist. That had honestly never really occurred to me that this thing we assume is this great, this benefit we can bring, may not be a benefit at all sometimes. That's so important to think about. And I think we don't think about it here in the US because we've, we've spent so much of our history destroying the, the small communities, that now all they have left is tourism, if we can bring it there. That's fascinating. Every time I try to talk to you about your climbing, you just keep, you just keep pushing it toward community again. I think there's a reason for that. Talk to me about your trip here a little bit and what you've seen that's different - beyond just the fact that there are more routes to choose from - about the climbing scene. Here in the US versus the climbing scene in India. And what will you, what will you take away and take back to India versus "Let's just leave that for the Americans, they'll, they'll figure out they've gone wrong eventually,"?

Kris Hampton  58:28

Well, I am going to turn a week old in the US tomorrow.

Kris Hampton  1:00:24

So I'm asking for the big lessons as you're a week old. Yeah.

Prerna Dangi  1:00:29

But the climbing, climbers festival has been a great start, I would say. And you've asked me a tricky question. Because the most obvious thing, you've already said that there's so much, so many of the routes here. But I think that what I get to learn is what that looks like, what a developed community looks like, and crag looks like, and to think whether it's needed in some of the places where we climb, or if it... and if it is, then how do we develop that? Mike, the other day at the advocacy conference, gave a really nice presentation on how tourism around Lander has been gaining from climbing and how climbing helps circulate the dollar is to several business owners, stakeholders, individuals, and to see that spelled out and put all of the points together and who is the community actually benefiting was a great lesson because now I understand the model. And I think that that model is the same globally, like you want to get a climbing place to develop? There needs to be a place to camp or at least set up a camp, bathrooms, you know, someplace that provides food. And a very present example of that is in my home crag in Dhauj where my friends from Delhi climb, that is being led by Jamyang they did exactly that. And now suddenly in Dhauj, where you wouldn't see more than like five climbers, we would always go in groups, women couldn't go travel together, because there was the risk of being harassed or god knows what. And it was a fairly unsafe space to just go to. And it was very common to not have a pleasant experience, because there would be an audience that doesn't understand the sport - is too curious than they need to be. And they come close to your gear and you don't want that. But that's just because they don't know and they want to know, and the way of, their way they, they want to know is a language that you're not comfortable with, but that's how they speak. Now that place has turned into, you know, an every weekend climbing party, and apart from the trad climbing, there is bouldering. There is, there's new routes being bolted in a place with permission from our old crusty climbers who are now seeing that, "Okay, alright, not all climbers can maybe enter this through trad because that's a big access issue." And how sport climbing is, like, you know... bouldering is sometimes too hard. And I think that's why sport climbing is like the best, the smoothest transition for an indoor climber or a complete non-climber to trust themselves on rock and get a hang of the body movement. And fall in love with the sport, while feeling completely safe, because that's so important. Because unlike me, who a lot of my experiences are just like scarred memories of like falling off. Like just being forced to, you know, to ride up routes and lead them and only onsight them because you can't... like, if you put up a top rope then you're just a, you know, yeah, that's, that's not cool. I've totally like forced myself to do that. I've gone through that because I wanted to be solid and I wanted to endure but that's why it took me so many years to, like, climb trad that is like hard trad. I still don't because I'm so scared. So I think it's one of the biggest takeaways for me so far has been how community can help, how communities can like develop into sustainable and well-rounded, timing opportunities, and how to, how to maybe do that, bring that. I'll definitely be taking that back to India with me.

Kris Hampton  1:05:02

You know, I, the other night when I was introducing Brittany Goris, I mentioned that, you know, I love climbing history. You obviously love climbing history, you just posted an Instagram post, I think this morning, about the route Poker Face Alice at Wild Iris and you included the first ascent information, Pete Delanoy, and the year that he did it, and so you obviously care about that history, too. And when I was introducing Brittany, I mentioned that I've seen that history hold people back. Because it's, they've romanticized it too much. They've gotten intimidated by it, they're, they can't break out of the old ethics to build something new. And, and it's this generation of climbers, and I think the most inspiring thing I see from this generation, from your generation of climbers, is that they are breaking out of that history. They're respecting it, but then breaking forward. And I introduced Brittany as one of the leaders of that. And I absolutely put you into that category. And I think it's amazing that you're, you're showing everyone, including the old crusties that are there, and that they're, that that's the way forward. And now they're saying, "Yeah, go ahead and bolt this," you know, "The way we did it may not be the best way." It's pretty incredible to be able to reach back and change people's minds that way. I don't think it's an accident that we ended up talking more about community than about your own personal climbing. I watch closely who the leaders of this next generation are. And I think it's great that there are people climbing super hard, but those aren't the leaders of the next generation, in most cases. It's people like you that are. So thanks, thanks so much for being here at the International Climbers Festival. And thanks even more for the work you're doing in, in building this community to look more like the thing you want to see. Because I want to see whatever it is that you've got in mind. Thanks for sitting down with me, Prerna. 

Prerna Dangi  1:07:56

Thank you. Can I add something? 

Kris Hampton  1:07:59

Yeah.

Prerna Dangi  1:08:00

It's just about the last point that you made. And it, while you were saying it, it made me realize that one of the reasons why history is important is because it's being made in India right now. And me, and way more people than me, my friends, are doing it. And I see that. And I think I see the value of why that needs to be remembered. Because it makes you want to, it makes you see climbing for more than just the hard time that it is. It makes you want to see it for all of the times that it's been done and what the vision could have been for the first person who did it. And that's so important because it's one of those things that makes you aware about not just the climb, but everything around it, its history, and its present. So my friend, Dylan, who's been developing a lot of the routes in Sethan, the granite place with the shitty landings, remember, taught me that: how important it is to give those credits because those are needed.

Prerna Dangi  1:08:00

I love it. In my book, you're, you're one of those people who are going to be credited and in the next coming years as having, having pushed the way we think about this forward, so thanks.

Kris Hampton  1:09:19

Thank you so much for having me.

Kris Hampton  1:09:47

Thanks to both Prerna and Veronica from The Climbing Initiative from making this thing happen. Honestly, it gives me hope for this community that there are women like these two leading the way. Links for getting in touch with Prerna and The Climbing Initiative are right there in the show notes in your pocket supercomputers. If you'll be in the Red River Gorge this October, Prerna will be there and will likely be partner hunting, so hit her up on Instagram. The Power Company Podcast is brought to you by Power Company Climbing. You can learn, grow, and excel with us at powercompanyclimbing.com where you'll find links to the Power Company Climbing Academy and the Knowledge + Community Hub. We hope you'll join us. We're on Instagram, Facebook and YouTube: @powercompanyclimbing. But not Twitter. Because we don't tweet, we scream like eagles.

Prerna Dangi  1:10:56

I feel like the mic has a way of like giving me like this weird vision where I was completely zoned in. Or maybe... and it's also you. 

Kris Hampton  1:12:06

That's good.

Prerna Dangi  1:12:07

You definitely bring out like...

Kris Hampton  1:12:09

That's how it should be.

Prerna Dangi  1:12:10

... a lot more than, you know, what the person's probably thinking that they have in them. Thanks, Kris. That was a really comfortable conversation.