Board Meetings | Top Ways Climbers are Holding Themselves Back with The Average Climber Podcast

In this episode, Kris and Nate are joined by coach Lauren Abernathy and nutritionist Caitlin Holmes of The Average Climber Podcast. The four discuss some of the biggest ways they see climbers getting in their own way.

They chat about the impact that shifting your perspective can have, how easy it can be to get caught up in comparing yourself to others, and why reading all the Mountain Project comments on that route you’re psyched to check out might not be the best idea.

Plus, they’ll answer a question that’s been plaguing climbers for ages: what’s the best brand of gummy bears?

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FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Nate Drolet  00:00

It's amazing. It's so pretty.

Caitlin Holmes  00:01

So beautiful.

Lauren Abernathy  00:01

Yeah, Canadian Rockies are kind of superior somehow. Also, I met a bunch of Canadian teens, actually, some friends met a bunch of Canadian teens in a hot tub in Canada one time, and they all pronounced it: Cal-gary. 

Caitlin Holmes  00:15

What? 

Kris Hampton  00:16

Cal-gary? 

Lauren Abernathy  00:16

Yeah. So I don't know. 

Caitlin Holmes  00:18

I don't think that's correct. I think you're either trolling us or... 

Nate Drolet  00:22

They were trolling y'all. 

Lauren Abernathy  00:23

Yeah. Or they were just hicks.

Kris Hampton  00:24

Absolutely.

Nate Drolet  00:26

And I mean there are a lot of hicks in Calgary because they have the second biggest rodeo... in the United States.

Kris Hampton  00:32

So having a big rodeo means the whole place is hicks?

Lauren Abernathy  00:35

Shots fired! 

Nate Drolet  00:36

Well, no, I mean like, you know, that's where you go when you take cattle north. You're taking them to...

Kris Hampton  00:42

That's where you go when you're a hick. 

Caitlin Holmes  00:43

The Calgary Stampede. 

Nate Drolet  00:44

I've been to the stampede.

Caitlin Holmes  00:46

Really? My mom randomly the other day was like, "That's on my bucket list now," and I was like, "Alright."

Nate Drolet  00:54

It's a good one.  It's right up there with the Houston Livestock Show and Rodeo. 

Caitlin Holmes  00:57

Excellent. I'll have to tell her about that.

Kris Hampton  00:59

What did you just say?

Nate Drolet  00:59

The Houston Livestock Show and Rodeo?

Kris Hampton  01:01

Oh, I thought you said the Houston Last Duck.

Nate Drolet  01:04

Last Duck Show and Rodeo. We only have one.

Lauren Abernathy  01:09

The Last Duck sounds like actually a really sweet dive bar, though. 

Caitlin Holmes  01:12

The Last Duck? Oh my god.

Kris Hampton  01:15

A good band name. The Last Duck. 

Caitlin Holmes  01:19

I like that. 

Kris Hampton  01:20

Alright, fine. Let's get this thing started. 

Caitlin Holmes  01:22

Excellent. 

Kris Hampton  02:00

What's up everybody? I'm your host Kris Hampton.

Nate Drolet  02:03

This is Nate Drolet.

Caitlin Holmes  02:04

I'm Caitlin Holmes.

Lauren Abernathy  02:05

And I'm Lauren Abernathy.

Kris Hampton  02:07

And together we form Jazmine Sullivan. Anybody? Anybody? 

Caitlin Holmes  02:18

Can I get a hint? 

Nate Drolet  02:21

Oh, nevermind.

Kris Hampton  02:21

2010. 

Kris Hampton  02:22

Produced by Missy Elliott. 

Lauren Abernathy  02:25

Okay, okay.

Kris Hampton  02:26

A song called, "Holding You Down (Goin' In Circles)"

recording  02:40

** audio of Holding You Down (Goin' In Circles) plays**

Kris Hampton  02:43

Because... See, this is how Nate feels every episode.

Caitlin Holmes  02:46

Surprise. 

Nate Drolet  02:47

Y'all seem sad. I just, I'm just reading my notes right now. I'm like this is just another day. 

Caitlin Holmes  02:54

I'm like, oh my gosh, is this like a quiz question?

Kris Hampton  02:58

Because that's what we're here to talk about. Climbers holding themselves back, holding themselves down. Just spinning around in fucking circles. And this is a special episode. We're here with The Average Climber Podcast, as well. Lauren and Caitlin have joined us here in Lander for what will essentially turn into, I presume, debauchery.

Caitlin Holmes  03:24

What's new?

Lauren Abernathy  03:26

And shenanigans -- don't forget this shenanigans!

Kris Hampton  03:32

Since I know this thing is gonna go for like 17 hours because Lauren's got a whole list of fun facts over there, I'm sure. And we're obviously going to get into conspiracy theories at some point. Let's just set this thing off. And Nate, I'm just gonna have you get started because you've got a very serious face on but very unserious socks.

Nate Drolet  03:56

Yes. My bacon and, bacon and eggs socks. So am I, wait, am I introducing the concept? What am I?

Kris Hampton  04:04

You can tell us what it's all about. And then thing give us your first one. And let's roll.

Nate Drolet  04:11

So our subject, if I'm getting this right, it is the top things that we see holding people back. Is that correct?

Caitlin Holmes  04:19

I think so. That's what we're here for, yeah.

Nate Drolet  04:20

Did I, did I study for the right tests?

Caitlin Holmes  04:21

Four points for Gryffindor.

Nate Drolet  04:23

So I'll go ahead and start. My first one is, and each of us have two of them, my first one is perspective. And this can be seen in a lot of different ways. You know, maybe the easiest one to give as an example is you can't tell a 20-year-old to have, to look at things as far as playing the long game. Because they just don't know. 

Kris Hampton  04:23

You did. 

Kris Hampton  04:49

You can tell them.

Nate Drolet  04:51

You can tell them all day long. 

Kris Hampton  04:53

They're just too dumb to figure it out.

Nate Drolet  04:55

Well, I mean, to them the long, they are playing the long game. Like you know I remember when I was 20, it's like "Well, I'm training for a trip to Hueco in three months, I'm playing the long game." Like and that's just, you know, that's how it is. You don't have the perspective of more years. Another good example of this is more seasoned climbers. I was coaching a guy just the other day, he's been climbing 20 years. And he just, it's hard for him to imagine that 5.13 is possible. Because that was so elite at that time. When he started climbing, you climb 13a, you were a sponsored rock climber. And you know, I work with him. I'm like, "Yeah, you could do it like, tomorrow." But in his mind, he's so tied to this idea that that is elite. And that's super common. You know, I remember when I first started climbing, I never saw anything harder than V8 in a gym. And it would be one problem. Might as well have just been impossible, like, you know, they just put foot jibs on the wrong way. They're like, "I think this is V8, we don't really know." 

Kris Hampton  04:55

There's several spotlights shining on that boulder. No one ever tries it.

Nate Drolet  05:58

Yeah, exactly. I remember the first time I ever went to a gym that had a V10 tag. I was like, "Whoa, okay. Is Chris Sharma in town? What's going on?" But now, you know, you look at climbers and people get good so fast. And it's really funny to me, there is this perspective that I keep hearing where people are like, "Well, you know, coaches are just so much better and training is so much better than it used to be. And that's why people get good so fast." And as much as I would love to toot my own horn and be like, "Yes, I am so great at my job that..."

Caitlin Holmes  06:31

You're welcome. Here I am. 

Lauren Abernathy  06:34

The rate at which the whole population of everywhere is getting better, so much faster is because coaches are here.

Nate Drolet  06:39

All boats lift with a rising tide and I am that tide. 

Nate Drolet  06:43

I am the ocean. I am all. But I don't buy it. Like look training, like yeah, training is getting better. We're getting smarter, I hope. I truly believe we're getting better, but...

Lauren Abernathy  06:43

I am the ocean.

Kris Hampton  06:56

I debate that sometimes.

Nate Drolet  06:58

I mean, honestly, if you look at the information that's been around for a long time, there's been great information for a long time. People haven't always bought into it. And a lot of this was perspective. There was a time when oh, you want to get better at rock climbing? You rock climb. Like there was this blog post from Sonnie Trotter and he talked about going to the gym with a bunch of strong climbers, including Dave Graham, and all of them burnt off Dave. I mean, like everything they did in the gym, campusing. And then you know, they go out rock climbing the next day and Dave like sent 14c second go. And they're all projecting 13+. Like, and he was like, "Okay, this clearly shows it's not about physical strength." But this was also because this was the time when everyone would just rock climb a lot, where now you can look around and be like, "No, physical strength makes a huge difference." There's still, we just have a new perspective. But I do think that, you know, going back talking about coaches and training as a reason why things are getting better. It's like, "No, no, it's not." You know, that's not why people walk into the gym and just random dude bros will climb like V6 in their first year. It's not because they're listening to The Power Company Podcast or The Average Climber Podcast.

Kris Hampton  08:11

What do you mean? Of course it is. 

Nate Drolet  08:13

Like, it's just you go in and suddenly, oh, there's 20 V10 climbers in here. There are tags that go up to V11. I mean, I got a client who's doing remote work in Fargo right now. And he was like, "Yeah, they have like three V10's in here and a Moonboard," which goes up to whatever you want. Like, that's wild. This gym in Fargo is more stacked then the biggest gym in Houston when I started climbing, without question. And I think that's amazing. And I think that being able to take a step back wherever you are, because I do think this holds people back, and trying to take in these different perspectives, looking through different lenses. You know, if you think, "Hey, everyone around me like climbs 5.12 and we think 513 is the hardest thing in the world?" Man, go climb at the Red, you'll see. Go climb there in the fall, you'll see 100 people just warming up on 5.13. And you're like, "Oh, maybe it's not that bad. Maybe I've just put it in my head that this is the case." And you know, it's the same thing if you think that you're like, "Oh, well, I'm too stressed." You know, this is a common thing, I think, with people like in their late 20s, mid/late 20s, or honestly, people when they first go to college. They're like, "I have no time for anything. I'm so stressed." And it's because you know, they're out of high school and they had literally nothing to do before then. But now they're just like, "I'm so stressed. I'm so busy. I can't do anything." And then, you know, you talk to these same people, 10 years ago? And they're like, "I have no clue what I did with that free time. Man. I had so much time. How did I think I was stressed? I suddenly have 10 more things on my plate and I get so much more done." And it's perspective.

Kris Hampton  09:50

Do you think there's a way to make sure you're getting those perspectives? Like is it something like you have to lean into? You know, putting yourself in situations with better climbers, stronger climbers? What do you think the best way to get that kind of a wider perspective is?

Nate Drolet  10:11

I think different people, different, like, different stories. You know, I do believe that being around other people is super helpful. You know, when you spend time with someone who has no time and they have to be focused, you're like, "Oh, they get a lot done, I could, I could benefit from that." You spend time with people who, you know... I love climbing around and coaching climbers who are like in their 40s and 50s. Because a lot of them start to hit this groove where they're like, "You know what? I've had a lot of stress before." Suddenly, they have a stressful month, they're like, "You know what, it's okay. This isn't going to end my career. It's not the end of the world, I'm going to keep going." But they also kind of understand that there's a limit to time, like the clock is counting. And they suddenly feel that more than most other people, like definitely in your 20s and 30s. And so they say, "Hey, I'm not gonna let these things stress me out so much, but I'm gonna keep my foot on the gas." So spending time with people like that, man, spending time around young kids who just don't know any better. They're like, "I want to go try and climb V12 next year," like and they just go after it. And it's like, "Don't you know you can't do that? There are rules."

Lauren Abernathy  11:16

You'll maybe fail and then be upset about it and it'll be bad. 

Nate Drolet  11:20

Exactly. And so I think other people -- amazing way. But also, whenever you hear something that contradicts something that you believe, and I do this as a coach all the time, anytime I hear another coach say something or hear a climber say something that I don't agree with, instead of just being like, "Ah, I don't think they're right." I think, what is the lens that they're looking through? Because it's probably like, chances are, they're probably correct. I'm sure that's correct for them. Like, that's why they're saying it. And it might be correct for the people that they're around. Or if it's a coach, you know, there's a subsection of people that they work with, and it might be very true for them. So I want to know, "Why is it you say that? Because I don't see that. But clearly, your perspective shows you that this is truth. So what is that?" And I think that's true for climbing as well. If someone's like, "Hey, I, you know, I don't like training more than once a week, and I just climb outside otherwise, and I keep getting better." You may be like, "Well, that's not true." I need, you need to Moonboard three days a week, and you need to do this, and I'm getting better doing this. You know, take a step back. It's like, "Hey, we're different people. Why does that benefit you? What do you get out of that? Is there something I could get out of that?"

Kris Hampton  12:31

Yeah, I think questioning your assumptions is super important. One of the ones that I see, you know, in this way, they're, they're like blocking their own perspective growth, is this whole like, "I don't go to that crag because that's like where the elite climbers go. That's where all the cool climbers go. And, you know, there's this bad attitude at that crag." What I found most of the time is that going to those crags is way more relaxed and chill than the like 5.11-trying-to-climb-5.12 crag. There's so much less ego at the crag where there's a bunch of, you know, really good rock climbers. And going there can really open up your perspective too, because you see people being totally willing to just fail all day long. And there's no ego involved with it. And people will cheer for people who are just trying hard whether they send or not. So if you're one of those people who has that, that, frankly, absolutely wrong attitude, try and switch that around. It might open up some doors for you. 

Nate Drolet  13:38

Yeah, I agree.

Lauren Abernathy  13:40

I remember I, Nate, I went to your Projecting Tactics clinic last year, and I remember...

Nate Drolet  13:45

Ah, I made a funny joke at that one.

Lauren Abernathy  13:49

I'm sure I did. The list is long. People are like, "You said this." And I'm like, "Did I? That's fun." But I remember, I remember talking about, you, you made us all practice going up to like what appeared to be an intimidating crew below your project. 

Nate Drolet  14:03

It was me. I was intimidating.

Kris Hampton  14:04

I'll tell you one thing, it's pretty fucking rare you're gonna find a hammock at a crag with a bunch of 5.14's.

Lauren Abernathy  14:04

Yeah, you guys have to come over here and really practice and you know, try to get in line and stuff. And he made everyone do it. And it was great. And I've actually made athletes do this to me, like over Zoom. I'm like, "You're getting on that frickin' rock climb." But I remember you saying something like, you know, at a certain point, like with crags with higher grades, people that are there have had to make it through a projecting process. And have had to go through failure and success more so than perhaps the cracking 5.11+/5.12 level. Because that is oftentimes where people just set a benchmark and they're like, this is the first time they really like wail on something. And then you go to you know, a crag that maybe has like slightly higher grades or just people that are more seasoned at projecting and you know, sucking and succeeding and it definitely can be a different attitude. I mean, I've definitely been to crags where the atmosphere does feel aggressive, but at the same time, it could just be - I always challenge people - like it could just be your impression of it because you feel intimidated? Like there might be someone there that's a jerk. It's very possible, it can happen. But it also could be that you're shaping your reality of the situation beyond what it actually is, so...

Nate Drolet  15:17

Truth. But yeah, I, like, you know what you were saying as far as like that kind of 5.11, what y'all we're both saying about 5.1/5.12 range, you know, I think there's almost these, like, teenage years that we all go through? 

Caitlin Holmes  15:29

Oh, boy. 

Lauren Abernathy  15:30

Big facts.

Nate Drolet  15:31

So back when I was in high school, anytime I'd be just super stubborn and be arguing with my dad, at a certain point he would just kind of shrug your shoulders and say, "You know, I remember when I was a teenager and knew everything." And that one sinks in a little more year by year. Because you can't argue it. And he would just be like, you know, okay, and you just kind of walk off with that. And in that we all go through that with climbing, we go through it with everything, where you hit a point, you're like, "No, I fucking got it. I know what I'm talking about." And for a lot of people like yeah, in climbing, like you'll see that in that like 5.12. Sometimes, I mean, depending on how fast people get there, a lot of times, it's in that like, two to five years of climbing range, where it's like, you know, "I've been around the block. I know what's up." Yeah, I've seen it. And everyone hits it at different points. But there's this weird, it's like that Dunning-Kruger effect: We don't know what we don't know. 

Kris Hampton  16:22

Exactly. 

Nate Drolet  16:23

And then it just takes like, you step outside your little bubble and get a new perspective, and you're like, "Oh, I'm not good at this. And I have no idea what I'm doing." Cool. Cool. Cool. 

Kris Hampton  16:33

Totally. So important to keep broadening that perspective. Let's move on to Caitlin, see what you have. And the way this is, you know, we are, we're all coming from our own different perspectives. Nate, Lauren, and I all as climbing coaches, trainers; Caitlin as a nutritionist. So I'm, I'm really interested to hear what, what's holding us back nutrition-wise, because I'm gonna be guilty of all of this.

Caitlin Holmes  17:02

One of the things that when I was talking to Lauren about like, "Well, yeah, what does hold us back?" She's like, "Well, the same things you always say." And I'm like, "Yeah, but that can't be holding us back anymore, right?"

Nate Drolet  17:14

I've said it four times, how have they not listened? 

Caitlin Holmes  17:16

Yeah, yeah. So my perspective, you know... But it is true when I, I work with a lot of climbers and at varying levels, varying disciplines. And the first thing that we always talk about is just bare minimum: eating enough. And that's just, you know, it comes from, "Okay, are you are you training? Are you just climbing more? You know, what's, what are you doing to actively engage in climbing?" Because I like to joke that "With greater power, comes a greater electricity bill." And people are like, "Well, yeah, but you know, I'm not doing that much. I'm, I'm only climbing, you know, eight days out of seven days a week. And I'm just, you know, I'm really not doing anything I'm only sending like, V6's in the gym." And I'm like, "Well, how was your recovery? Do you have any injuries? What's going on?" 

Lauren Abernathy  18:14

I just have a finger injury on and off every three months for my whole life. 

Caitlin Holmes  18:18

Yeah. Really bizarre. And really... 

Lauren Abernathy  18:19

It's just because I'm old. I'm like, "You're 29!" Anyways, this is not about me.

Caitlin Holmes  18:23

Yeah, it's, it is strange, because I think a lot of climbers think that they need to eat less. Or maybe they've just not eaten enough for a long time and then they get into this sport, that a lot of us don't necessarily, or maybe it's just a newer sport so we don't really connect it to, "Okay, I climb, therefore I'm an athlete." A lot of people are like, "Oh, what a novel concept. I'm not an athlete," but they're going to the gym for the same purpose of getting better at climbing, you know, periodized throughout the week. So they are, just by the nature of that definition, an athlete, so...

Kris Hampton  19:04

Are you engaging in athletics? 

Caitlin Holmes  19:06

Yeah. Yeah. So are you eating like an athlete? Well, nine times out of ten, no. And a lot of people will, you know, weight loss is a whole other topic, but they'll think, "Oh, okay, well, I'll just eat what my fitness pal tells me is the bare minimum." And surprise: lots of issues come out of that. So it just, it is really shocking that, yeah, we're not eating more when we're engaging in such a calorie-intensive sport, even if you're just, you know, hopping on a boulder 18 times in a day, and you're like, "I didn't, I didn't send so I didn't earn it." It's like, "Hmmmmmmm."

Kris Hampton  19:45

Yeah, you just said something that made me go down this rabbit hole I had never considered. We see it in coaching a lot where people will look at a grade and not look at it relative to themselves and their energy expenditure and they're just like, "Well, it's not a very big grade, you know." Do people do that with food as well? Like, "Well, this isn't a very hard grade, so I can't be spending much energy."

Caitlin Holmes  20:14

Exactly, yeah, I see that a lot. People will just say, "Oh, you know, I'm, I'm still pretty new," or we had a lot of people come by our booth this weekend and say, "Well, I'm a, I'm a below average climber." So I'm like, "Okay, well, you're still part of the average." But also, if you're still you know, you're going to the gym, say you're just having a mileage day on V0's, you're still expending a lot of calories and moving your body in unique ways. It's not as if, you know, you're doing a lot of the same workouts in the gym, let's say, and you build those adaptations. But when you're climbing, you're, you're moving different body parts in different ways, unique ways, every single time you climb, whether it's V0 or V12. So relative to each person, you're still expending those calories, even if you have adaptations in climbing, so to say, you know, at any level, you don't "deserve" to eat more or you have to "earn" more -- even if the climb, you know, climbing day you have is not at your limit. It's it just gets kind of murky and confusing. There's a lot of misinformation out there.

Kris Hampton  21:26

That's so funny. I had never connected it to nutrition, but climbers have a real problem like seeing things relative to them. They almost always look at it relative to like the greater, you know, arc of what climbing grades can be. Like, I had a conversation with Alex Honnold that was two hours of me reminding him "You are not Alex Megos." He kept comparing himself. "Well, yeah, but, you know, Alex Megos warms up on 14c, why can't I even do 14c?" And I'm like, "You're not Alex Megos." "But I should be able to warm up on my hardest things." I'm like, "That's not his hardest thing! That's not that hard for him. That's why he can warm up on it." You know?

Caitlin Holmes  22:14

Well, it's funny you bring up Alex Honnold because I, I recently listened to a podcast with him on it and he mentioned something about nutrition being a small percent improvement for climbers. And I was like, "Hold on. You're, you're Alex Honnold, who maybe has a different set of needs, maybe you've already dialed in your nutrition." But I know for me, when I started climbing, I was horribly under-fueled, just didn't recover. I felt really lethargic all the time, probably exposed myself to more injuries than I remember at this point. But it was just a lot of things happening at once. And the first thing I did, instead of eating more, I actually cut back because I wanted to look like quote, "climber-typical body" and like, okay, well, that's backwards. Because when you're climbing, in order to put on muscle, to get stronger, to minimize recoveries, you actually have to eat more, you have to support what you're doing. 

Kris Hampton  23:18

Right.

Lauren Abernathy  23:19

Do you think people ever get confused? Because I always joke about that one of the reasons I love rock climbing is because of how much sitting is involved, but do you think people ever get confused? Because truly, if you're doing a quality, you know, it's a power-oriented or like difficult bouldering session, you should theoretically be doing a lot of sitting. And do you think that ever confuses people with how much to fuel? Because even though you're having these explosive, you know, movements and trying really hard, you are still sitting a lot and are inactive, outside and inside. So do you think that ever... because if you've ever gone to a group fitness class, it's like "Keep moving till you vomit. Otherwise you're doing it wrong." 

Kris Hampton  23:57

That's, that's the thing. It's like the general public who don't believe that they're athletes, when they think of something that is athletic, they think of endurance. 

Lauren Abernathy  24:09

Right, and especially if... 

Kris Hampton  24:10

They think of something where you're about to throw up because you've been doing it for so long. As if, you know, a high jumper is not an athlete or something.

Lauren Abernathy  24:19

Right. 

Caitlin Holmes  24:20

Yeah, it's, when you think too of people -- or this is what I hear oftentimes is that -- if people are, say if they sent their project, they're like, "Now I get to have my ice cream," versus the climber who's giving it five, six burns, and then they go home feeling defeated and they don't feel like they've "earned" that recovery meal, recovery snack or treat, whatever it is. It's, it's like a really weird disconnect with how we fuel, how we feel about our bodies, how connected we are. In a sport that's so body connection, we're just not, a lot of us don't fuel enough.

Kris Hampton  24:21

You just alluded to it and then skipped right over it. Can we talk about where ice cream sits in the pantheon of recovery meals? 

Caitlin Holmes  24:47

Yes.

Lauren Abernathy  24:48

What if I'm sad and I'm eating ice cream because I didn't send? 

Kris Hampton  25:00

You're recovering. 

Lauren Abernathy  25:09

I'm recovering... emotionally and physically.

Caitlin Holmes  25:15

...emotionally and physically. 

Lauren Abernathy  25:15

Oh hey, finished each others sentences. Cute, cute.

Caitlin Holmes  25:18

 We finished each others sandwiches. We did yesterday, Lauren actually finished my sandwich, yesterday.

Lauren Abernathy  25:26

Uhh yeah, because I left my... Actually, no, this is perfect that we're recording this right now. Because even though I literally sit there while Caitlin teaches nutrition all the time, I've worked with her extensively, she still comes to visit and she's like, "Lauren, stop working and eat breakfast." Caitlin made me scrambled eggs this morning. It's great when she visits. I'm, I'm a catastrophe sometimes. I'm good, it's good to have me around when you're like "What's holding people back? What did Lauren do yesterday?"

Kris Hampton  25:52

I, that resonates with me. on days where I'm like, "Oh, I'm gonna go train at like 2:00." And then it's like 1:30. And I'm like, "Oh, no, I haven't eaten anything."

Caitlin Holmes  26:04

I mean, I do it, too. I feel like oh, I have all the information at my fingertips and it'll be two o'clock and I'm having a really grumpy afternoon, really lethargic. And I'm like, "Huh, last time I ate was, oh, 7:30 this morning. Alright. Makes sense." So I think it's just, it's a learning process. But to your question about ice cream, I think...

Kris Hampton  26:30

Yeah, let's get back to that. 

Caitlin Holmes  26:31

Let's get back to that. So when, I mean, I've worked with a lot of runners, as well, a lot of marathon distance runners. And they always say, "The first thing I have after my race is ice cream, because I really want to replenish those calories." And I'm like, "That's interesting." We, often in climbing, I really never hear that. But I do think it has its place. I mean, it does have carbs, fat, and protein. Am I saying you should have that on its own without additional well-balanced macros coming in from like a whole meal? Well, probably not. But it should probably be an addition. It can be you know, have your well-balanced recovery meal and your ice cream. You can even have it if it's not part of recovery. But in terms of recovery, it does provide nutrients. Like even, you know, think of a classic food that we might consider, you know, "not healthy" -- with, I'm doing air quotes.

Lauren Abernathy  27:32

Whoosshhhhhhhh, air quotes. That's our air quotes sound. 

Caitlin Holmes  27:34

That is our air quotes sound. It is. But like think about a Twinkie. People are like, "Oh, well, that's not healthy." But it's not inherently bad. It provides energy, it provides calories. 

Kris Hampton  27:45

It's delicious.

Caitlin Holmes  27:46

It's delicious. 

Lauren Abernathy  27:47

It's fun to say.

Caitlin Holmes  27:49

Are there more...yeah, they might last a long time, maybe they don't expire? I don't know, there's a lot of research on that. 

Lauren Abernathy  27:54

They'll preserve you from the inside out.

Caitlin Holmes  27:57

But I think it's, you know, it is a food that provides energy. And there are absolutely foods that are more nutrient-dense, sure, but doesn't mean you have to exclude those to be healthy, in recovery, feeling good or comfortable in your skin. There's, there are places for a lot of foods in our diet.

Kris Hampton  28:21

I like it. And I need to take that advice.

Caitlin Holmes  28:25

So eat your ice cream, Kris.

Kris Hampton  28:28

Lauren, whatcha got?

Lauren Abernathy  28:29

Oh, okay. So this I think holds a lot of people back. So: you don't treat your mindset problems like skills to practice. I think it can be really easy to have a growth mindset about getting better at certain types of moves or getting better at certain types of climbing. But I think it can be harder to take the phrase, you know, something like, "I'm just a scared rock climber," or something like that. Or "I just will always compare myself to other climbers," or "I'm never going to be able to climb in front of other people comfortably." And just take a phrase like that and be like, "Well, that's just how my brain is. Can't do anything about that. So that sucks," and then never work on it.

Kris Hampton  29:14

Yeah, the stories we tell ourselves. 

Lauren Abernathy  29:16

Yeah. Because if you have, especially if you have like, I think some common mindset issues, and people know. But you know, if you have like a major fear of falling, or fear of exposure, or things like that, or if you have a major fear of climbing in front of others, or if you're really afraid of failure and that's part of why you never get on things that challenge you or that might make you quote, "look silly," and you don't, you know, take actionable steps over time to work on them, they're never going to get better. And no matter how much stronger you get or all these things, if you don't work on these problems that are really holding you back, it's gonna be an uphill battle when you're trying to send harder things.

Kris Hampton  29:51

Yeah, and it can be really insidious, too. And that, like the, the phrases don't have to be, "I don't do this," or "I'm not good at this." It can even be, "I'm a crimp climber, therefore, I don't climb on slopers." Or "I can't do that sloper boulder because I'm a good crimp climber." Those stories are so fucking powerful.

Lauren Abernathy  30:16

I know. And if you don't realize that they're stories, then they aren't things that you can change. And I think the biggest thing with this stuff, I was gonna give a tip, is like, figure out some kind of action plan. I don't know if it's a course, I don't know if it's a book, it's really going to depend on what it is, but you need to have habits similar... you need to have like a habit or something that you develop and work on, like in-line with your training. Like, for example, if someone has you know, major issues with falling that I'm working with, part of their training -- I literally will put it in the app -- and I'll be like, "You're gonna record how many practice falls you took today. And I also want you to like write down in the comments how kind of scared you were on a scale of 1 to 10." It's almost like the rate of perceived exertion of fear. Because I think it's really like hangboarding or doing hard boulders, whatever it is, that's super measurable. Also, I'm an ex-engineer, I guess I still have a degree, I'm an engineer, whatever. And I'm like, "I like data. I like graphs."

Kris Hampton  31:10

Coaching engineer. 

Lauren Abernathy  31:11

Coaching engineer! And I'm like, "Keep track of this stuff." Because it's gonna feel, sometimes it's really hard to quantify that these things are getting better, too. So I think, you know, that's a good actionable tip, it's like: come up with some system that works for you for actively doing things. You know, if it's fear of climbing in front of other people, like this used to totally be me. I would consciously stay behind whatever wall got reset. It'd be like everyone's over on the new set but I just stay one step behind, so I'm climbing the new set that everyone's moved on from two weeks ago.

Kris Hampton  31:43

Your reset is a week behind everyone else's.

Kris Hampton  31:45

Yeah, I fully agree. And one of the tips that I think helps folks as well, is like, go in with that plan that you're talking about. And before you do any, before there's any rock climbing that happens, say that to your partner. Like yeah, like today, you know, if it's, "I'm trying not to just say 'Take!' whenever I'm scared," or whatever, let your partner know that. Because if given the option, you're going to very often want to bail out... 

Lauren Abernathy  31:45

My reset's the week behind everyone else's, so that I didn't have to climb in front of like everyone climbing together. Because I was so afraid of like looking silly, or whatever. But you kinda gotta get over it because someday you're gonna have to try hard at a crowded loud crag, and you don't want your burns on whatever it is you're trying to climb to be mitigated or ruined by the fact that you're so stressed out that you're climbing in front of other people. And a lot of this is easier said than done. And it's going to be something gradual, perhaps over years, that you're going to have to work on. But recognizing, you know, mindset pitfalls or things that are really trapping you, and making some kind of actionable, measurable plan to work on them is something I don't see a lot of people doing. And I think it's big-time holding a lot of people back.

Lauren Abernathy  32:57

Totally. Because it's uncomfortable. 

Kris Hampton  32:58

...back into that comfortable space. Right, exactly. And the minute you do that, that, that discomfort has won for the day. And it's going to be that much harder every time you give in to break out of that.

Lauren Abernathy  33:12

Absolutely. And I also think any good climbing partner, emphasis on good, is going to be supporting you in that. Especially if, you know, people like to be part of a team. So if you just made someone part of your team for getting better at a certain skill, and probably this is a partner you climb with a lot, so if you're getting better at a certain skill, they're going to benefit from that in some way, too. So they're going to be supporting you and behind that. And especially I think it can feel so good to admit that there's something that we're uncomfortable with, because I think shame can really prevent us from you know, actually taking action on anything. Because we're so ashamed to even talk about that we're scared, or we're ashamed to say, "Wow, I don't really like climbing on slopey routes, because I climb four grades lower on these versus like the crimpy things I'm comfortable with." So I think admitting that, you know, saying it's something I'm working on and getting your partner involved in that way can be really helpful, too. So that's a very good tip, Kris.

Kris Hampton  34:04

Yeah. And it can be, it doesn't have to be these like really defined things like, "I'm scared of falling," or, you know, like you were mentioning, recognizing that you're, you're the one climbing on the old set over here while everybody else is having fun over here. You know, finding what the root of that problem is and then gradually just building into being better at it. I've mentioned it on this podcast before but there was a whole season in the Red where I wrote into my training program: "You have to be one of the last people awake or at the campfire at Miguel's and you cannot have a partner lined up before you get there." Because I was really good at lining up partners. I was really bad at figuring it out on the fly and shit would fall apart occasionally. And I'm like, I need to get better at that. So...

Lauren Abernathy  35:00

Like if the things falling apart made you so stressed out you couldn't rock climb the whole day? Yeah, that's a good skill to work on.

Kris Hampton  35:05

I would just go home. Like, or not go to the Red at all, if things fell apart. I'm like, "I gotta get better at this shit."

Caitlin Holmes  35:13

Yeah, I think it's, I like that you translated that from just climbing to other areas of your life, too. It's like, "What can I bring into this experience?" and make changes that are, you know, applicable but also work for me in this other realm. Like I, a couple weekends ago, I was having, what I'm dubbing an "emo-time" on some routes. And my partner asked me, "Okay, well, did you, you know, prep for it when you went into the climb? Were you doing your normal breathing thought exercise awareness of where you we're at today, like you do with everything else?" And I go, "Well, what do you mean?" It's like, "Well, why wouldn't you bring that into climbing?" I just... "Great question."

Lauren Abernathy  36:04

Hadn't thought about that.

Caitlin Holmes  36:05

I never thought about that before. But I, yeah, I agree. I think there's, there's just a lot of areas that, that we can start to bring that awareness to, and if we aren't sure of it initially, I think giving ourselves the time and space to slow down and think about it is something I don't... I mean, yeah. When do we do that that often in the moment? Yeah.

Lauren Abernathy  36:30

I also think, I guess, one of the last things I'll say about this is that I think there might be things where you just think it's normal, that are actually a gigantic pain in the ass for you. And you just think like, "Oh, well, that's just normal, that's fine." And there's a lot of things where it doesn't necessarily need to be like that. Like, similar to how I used to avoid, you know, the new set or whatever. When it came to climbing, just something that I would always do is think about, oh, how can I make sure -- I mean, crowds are one thing, but -- I would be like, "How can I make sure that I'm at this crag or that I'm picking projects where there won't be a lot of people?" and it would be something, you know, and to some degree this is advantageous, because less people, more burns, blah, blah, blah. It's math, more attempts, more sending, yada, yada. But, you know, it was kind of a crutch where it was like, I was avoiding climbing in front of other people because it stressed me out. And I just didn't, I just thought it was like a normal way to optimize my time outside. But then when I dug a little deeper, I was like, "Oh, you're really afraid of like, failing or like looking silly in front of other people. And that causes you a lot of distress." So yeah, there's anything where you're like, "That's just how I am, it's fine," and dig a little deeper and be like, "Hmm, maybe that is like a deeper mindset issue that I really could spend some time working through." Also get a therapist, if you can. I swear to God, I joke about this, but there's some athletes where I'm like, "You needed six months of therapy before we started a training plan."

Kris Hampton  37:54

You didn't, you didn't know that was what your actual job was going to be? Oh, my God, I could have told you that. 

Lauren Abernathy  38:00

Yeah, I know. You're right, but sometimes I'm like, "I think therapy would have been like a good prerequisite before you started hangboarding." I don't know. It's a wild operation.

Kris Hampton  38:03

No, I think that digging deeper is super, super important. It's really easy to convince ourselves, "This is just what I like."

Caitlin Holmes  38:17

Yeah. 

Nate Drolet  38:17

Yeah, and especially the more, you know, like we see, I see this all the time in training, like, it's the people who know the most about training that can tell the best lies. Like, you tell, you can tell me any training program, any exercise, any way to get better rock climbing, I can tell you right now why it's an incredible idea.

Lauren Abernathy  38:35

I think we did this, we like joked about this when we were at your clinic last year. I was like, "Nate, explain to me why eating a banana while holding a kettlebell in your right hand with one leg up is good." And then you came up, yeah, with an answer to it.

Nate Drolet  38:46

Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, bananas are carbs, you're getting 20 to 25 grams of carbohydrates which you need during a workout. This is also contralateral training, you're working ankle stability, which, let's be honest, in this current day and age of rock climbing, we're really focused on the hands, wrists, shoulders, elbows.

Lauren Abernathy  39:03

We need more ankles. 

Nate Drolet  39:03

How much are we really doing for our feet? And you are barefoot at the time? 

Lauren Abernathy  39:07

Yeah.

Nate Drolet  39:08

These are loaded carries, so you've it got down at your side. That's gonna help you be just more supported through your midsection. You're creating this good strong posture.

Lauren Abernathy  39:19

I mean, we have carbs, core stability, ankle stability, and grip strength in one hand, all in one simple exercise. It's excellent. 

Nate Drolet  39:25

Yeah, exactly. And coordination, let's be honest. You have limb independence, because all four limbs are doing something different in this moment. This is, I mean, I don't know why we don't have an ebook on it.

Lauren Abernathy  39:38

More, more kettlebell suitcase carries on one leg with bananas! We should end the podcast now.

Nate Drolet  39:45

But yeah to go back to... Commit. Exactly. But the more you know, the easier it is to tell yourself some great lies. Like you can be like, "Oh, no, I go to empty crags because I can get on my project more. No one's in front of me. This is great. It's not 'I have anxiety in front of other people while I try and perform.'"

Lauren Abernathy  40:04

No, it's definitely just an optimization thing. Not an issue I need to work on.

Nate Drolet  40:08

I'm an engineer, I am smarter. Optimization. It's not that I don't like eye contact.

Lauren Abernathy  40:13

You should see me at the grocery store. Oh my god, I have a good cilantro story about the grocery store. It's a little irrelevant, but I'm going to tell it because we're in too deep now. I sometimes am really like, after a long day of doing talking to people on the internet and coaching. I'm pretty extroverted, but like, you know, you need time, right? So I have my headphones in, I've just showered, I look like a swamp dog. And I'm at the checkout. And I look over and I'm like, "I've almost made it through. No one has spoken to me. I'm almost out of here without having to talk to a human being." And I feel a presence over my shoulder. And I turn around -- self-checkout, like no one should be helping me because self-checkout -- turned around, one of the workers, while my podcast is in, has picked up my cilantro, and he goes, "Is this cilantro or parsley?" And I was like, "It's cilantro." And he's like, "Can I type the code in for you?" And I was like, "No," and he's like, "But I know all the codes." And then I was like, "I'm good." He reaches over me, types the code in any way, and just like cruxes over my reach, and I was like, "Thank you." That was so violent. You just touched my produce.

Kris Hampton  40:45

Last night when you came to my house for tacos, did you just avoid the cilantro because of the trauma involved?

Lauren Abernathy  41:32

No, I still have a good relationship. It was, at least it was in the bunch. So now when it's like chopped up for taco toppings, it doesn't, it's not as triggering. So...

Caitlin Holmes  41:39

You made peace with it. You know, you didn't set expectations. And you just, you moved on. 

Lauren Abernathy  41:44

Exactly. But in any case, if you work at a grocery store, just don't fucking do that. I don't care that you know the codes! It takes me two seconds to type in C-I-L, cilantro. And then I'm out of there and I can keep listening to murder podcasts. So leave me alone.

Nate Drolet  42:01

They're actually how-to's and they're not true crime. For everyone who wants to know.

Lauren Abernathy  42:05

You touch my cilantro, you watch your tires later.

Kris Hampton  42:13

That sounded really authentic.

Nate Drolet  42:16

Kris Hampton, what is yours?

Kris Hampton  42:19

Mine sort of plays off what you were just talking about. And that's all the shiny new things that are on the Instagrams. And you know, I'm gonna blame a lot of the coaches for this, frankly, you know, we're just as much to blame as anybody else. You, you have this exciting thing you want to tell everybody about but all it does is add to the 478 other ways we can train our fingers. And, and then you see a client come in who's like, "Oh, I do these 500 finger strength workouts every week. What do you think?", you know. It's all the shiny new shit that just derails so many people. How many times have you -- any of you -- had people email you and list like 175 things they're doing every week? And then say, "What do I need to add to make it better?"

Lauren Abernathy  43:16

Yeah. 

Caitlin Holmes  43:17

I have the opposite. People always ask me, "What should I subtract?" But...

Kris Hampton  43:21

Yeah, when you're talking food... 

Caitlin Holmes  43:24

Exactly. 

Lauren Abernathy  43:25

Oh, yeah.

Caitlin Holmes  43:26

Yeah. People want to suffer in every way.

Kris Hampton  43:28

How can I add more diet? To my diet?

Caitlin Holmes  43:29

Yeah, how can I add more diet, subtract... 

Lauren Abernathy  43:32

Add more filters of what not to eat. 

Caitlin Holmes  43:35

Subtract fun, and also kill myself in the process? 

Lauren Abernathy  43:39

And also somehow love that I'm doing it, too. 

Caitlin Holmes  43:41

Yes. Yeah. How can I suffer the most and optimize the suffering?

Kris Hampton  43:46

Yeah. And I think in the nutrition world, it's like, there's all these new shiny diets, you know, new shiny ways to eat and even though it's worked for a long time just to eat well, we have to have all these exciting new diets with fun names. And you know, and it's the same way with the, with physical training. All the new shit is the best shit, of course.

Caitlin Holmes  44:12

Yeah, the basics suck. Those are canceled. Move on. That's what they feel like.

Lauren Abernathy  44:17

I've definitely had like, I've talked to other coaches who are like, someone sent me an email that they didn't like their program because it didn't have anything specific or complicated enough. I'm like, "There's a reason why basically in every professional sport, there's some form of deadlifting." Because it works.

Kris Hampton  44:35

Yeah, one of our coaches recently had a client who complained and wanted a refund because their current plan just looked like a progression of their former. "And I was like, isn't the whole goal here to make progress? Then it should look like a progression." 

Lauren Abernathy  44:57

Oh, yeah. No, I've gotten that. And someone was like, "So are my sessions going to change every week?" And I was like, "No. And the fun part is actually in four to six weeks, they'll still look pretty similar, but a little harder. And then it'll actually work instead of whatever you were planning on doing." 

Kris Hampton  45:14

Exactly. 

Lauren Abernathy  45:14

Yeah. 

Caitlin Holmes  45:14

They want like a rebrand or something. 

Lauren Abernathy  45:16

No, wait, I remember talking to, so I work with Blake of The Power Company -- Shout out, Blake. Thanks, Blake! -- but I remember talking to Blake about coaching once and he was like, "Sometimes I just change the names of things, like a little bit more." Like it really is rebranding but like it works. I see him do it to me. And I'm like, "Thank you." This different version of still 'Boulders on the Minute' is now 'Hard Boulder Intervals.' So it's different now. 

Nate Drolet  45:40

That's why my exercises keep changing names.

Lauren Abernathy  45:45

I totally do it. To my athletes listening, I'm sorry, I'm doing this to you right now.

Kris Hampton  45:50

Sorry not sorry.

Lauren Abernathy  45:52

 But I even know when it's happening to me and I still like it, so...

Nate Drolet  45:56

Man, it's funny, I got a client who -- this is back when I was in Houston, and I was coaching him both in-person as well as doing the remote -- so I was doing his remote program writing and then we work together twice a month, which was awesome. And like I love being able to work with people in-person, so this is a really cool way to do things. And it was really funny, he... so we started working together, he was climbing around like V4/V5, mostly in the gym, would go outside occasionally, but not much. One year later, he went out and on a three day trip did, I want to say, like four V8's and like, I don't know, six V7's. 

Lauren Abernathy  46:30

What?

Caitlin Holmes  46:30

Damn. 

Nate Drolet  46:30

All outside. And like, I mean, this is a guy who's climbing 10 or less days outside a year. Amazing progress. And this is in one year. And we had probably only done I think two three-month programs in that first year. And I kind of gave him guidance in-between. And so he went on this trip and he's like, "Cool, let's do another program." And it's funny because I wrote it for him, and we talked like in our next in-person session. He was like, "You know, I was honestly like a little bummed because it just felt a lot like what we've already been doing." He's like, "And then I talked with my wife, and she reminded me that I've just had the best progress of my life," because he had already been climbing like, I don't know, seven, eight years? So this wasn't like brand new gains that he was seeing. He was like, "She reminded me I've just been getting better month after month. And I should not think that it should change because that would be weird." I was like, "Well, I'm glad you came, I'm glad we talked about this. And I'm glad you came to that conclusion, as well." And he just keeps getting stronger and better, like and we're doing the same, essentially the same thing. 

Kris Hampton  47:26

Exactly.

Lauren Abernathy  47:27

Like I remember I had an athlete, like a similar thing. These are the athletes that I love working with. Because after you're like with someone for a long time, they're like, "Oh, sweet," and then it becomes more collaborative, and it's really fun. But this athlete had had like a rock star bouldering season and he was like, "Whatever we did before that, where I just smashed the world, can we do that again?" And then I was like, "Yes!" Makes my life easy, because I can go in and just be like what were we doing? Okay, cool. We'll tweak a few things to like make it make a little more sense, but it worked again. Sent his first V9 and I was like, "Sick!" Yeah, I mean, sometimes eventually, I think you will have to change things up. But if the gains have not dried up yet with what you're doing, like finding something that works is pretty glorious. So... keep doing it.

Kris Hampton  47:27

Yeah, making gains is hard. If you find a thing that works...

Nate Drolet  48:07

...don't stop doing it! 

Lauren Abernathy  48:14

Yeah! 

Nate Drolet  48:14

Oh my god.

Kris Hampton  48:16

Yeah. Don't trade it out for the shiny new shit.

Nate Drolet  48:19

I mean, it's like the classic Dan John line: "It worked so good, I stopped doing it."

Lauren Abernathy  48:22

Don't stop taking your antibiotics early and keep doing your training, if it's working. 

Nate Drolet  48:28

Yeah.

Lauren Abernathy  48:28

PSA.

Kris Hampton  48:34

Alright, let's take a quick break. We'll be right back with round two. 

Kris Hampton  48:40

Sport climbing season is coming fast. Got a nemesis route you need to clip chains on? For over a decade, we've helped climbers prepare for their goals. We've seen patterns emerge showing what's most effective for each level of climber. Those patterns became our Proven Plans, a training system that you can follow from complete beginner to 5.14 and beyond. With workouts geared toward your goals and focused on improving not only strength and power, but tactics and mindset as well. Each Proven Plan comes with a built-in group chat and an option to work directly with one of our coaches. We don't believe in a one size fits all approach to climbing. You shouldn't either.

Kris Hampton  49:19

Alright, we have returned with the... can I, can I call this a first annual Average Climber Board Meeting?

Caitlin Holmes  49:27

You absolutely can.

Lauren Abernathy  49:27

Oh, I, the fact that I used to listen to Board Meetings in the car and I'm on one? I'll Board Meeting all the time. First Annual it is. Let's do it.

Kris Hampton  49:34

Alright. Alright. One of my favorite things about The Average Climber Podcast is that you very often bring in these fucking ridiculous fun facts about random shit that has nothing to do with anything. And we need one.

Lauren Abernathy  49:53

Yes. Okay. I don't usually do this because I usually just like to stress Caitlin out at the beginning of every episode. Or Caitlin stresses me out to where I'm just like, "Well, I don't know how I'm supposed to deal with that. I guess we'll transition into what we're talking about." But today, I will give you all a choice. We can either do a cultural fun fact, or an animal fun fact. Anybody have a vote?

Nate Drolet  50:15

I mean, I like animals.

Kris Hampton  50:16

Me too.

Caitlin Holmes  50:17

I'm voting animals.

Kris Hampton  50:18

Animal fun fact.

Lauren Abernathy  50:19

This one's a little creepy, but get ready.

Kris Hampton  50:23

I suspected it was going to be creepy for some reason.

Lauren Abernathy  50:26

So, fun fact: there is a breed of cave salamander. And they are blind. They live in caves. And they have done research to show that these cave salamanders can remain completely motionless for up to seven years. And then that was one specimen, another specimen moved a total of 32 feet in a decade. 

Nate Drolet  50:51

Wow. 

Lauren Abernathy  50:52

And they're blind, which I think is creepy. And I'm pretty sure they're called olms, O L M S, which I also hate.

Kris Hampton  50:59

That's kind of a terrible name. 

Lauren Abernathy  51:01

It really is.

Kris Hampton  51:02

For a creature that does such an interesting thing. 

Lauren Abernathy  51:05

I know.

Nate Drolet  51:05

Do they do that as like a metabolic response? Like how hummingbirds essentially hibernate overnight? Because otherwise they would run out of calories? Is it similiar to that? 

Lauren Abernathy  51:16

Well, can we can we step into that? I didn't know this about hummingbirds.

Nate Drolet  51:20

Yeah, they operate at such a high like base caloric rate that when they go to sleep, they are essentially hibernating.

Lauren Abernathy  51:26

What? Caitlin, is that how people work or is that different?

Caitlin Holmes  51:31

Well, that just proves my point: eat more during your day.

Kris Hampton  51:34

So that you don't become a Salamander...

Lauren Abernathy  51:38

...who lives in a cave called an olm...

Kris Hampton  51:38

...who can't move for a decade.

Lauren Abernathy  51:40

I hope everyone just enjoyed how I don't know the answer to Nate's question so I changed the subject.

Caitlin Holmes  51:47

Wait, back up because I didn't even know there were such a thing as cave salamanders. That, you could have ended there and I'd be like, "Wow, cave salamanders. What a time."

Lauren Abernathy  52:00

Also, I truly feel this one fact that I've brought here to the Board Meeting today is very on brand because if you look them up, you're like, "These are ghost animals. They are pale white. They can't see anything and they do creepy shit." So...

Kris Hampton  52:13

It sounds like boulderers. Ghostly white pale cave salamanders.

Nate Drolet  52:21

Hasn't done a move in seven years. 

Kris Hampton  52:23

Hasn't seen the sun in their entire climbing career. They've gone 32 feet in a decade. 

Nate Drolet  52:29

Oh, wow. That is pretty good.

Kris Hampton  52:31

Whoaaaaa. 

Caitlin Holmes  52:32

This is what nightmares are made of.

Kris Hampton  52:34

That doesn't look like a real animal.

Caitlin Holmes  52:35

No, it looks like, a creature.

Lauren Abernathy  52:37

It looks like, it... wait, are those only two legs on it? What's going on? This looks like a modified snake without eyes.

Kris Hampton  52:44

It just campuses everything.

Caitlin Holmes  52:46

Yeah. Oh my God. Look at this one. It's smiling at you.

Kris Hampton  52:51

That one's fucking cute.

Lauren Abernathy  52:52

That one's kinda cute. We can put a stick, that's like sticker-able.

Caitlin Holmes  52:55

That is definitely sticker-able.

Kris Hampton  52:57

That's the next Average Climber Podcast sticker...

Lauren Abernathy  53:00

I know. 

Caitlin Holmes  53:00

Oh, yeah, there's... 

Kris Hampton  53:01

... the cave salamander.

Caitlin Holmes  53:02

...apparently there's another one called an axolotl. And they're very similar to an olm.

Lauren Abernathy  53:07

Oh. And now, the more you know. There you go. This, this podcast, our fun facts will make you vaguely more interesting at parties. Or I like to think, this is how I deal with feeling awkward at parties. I'm just like, "Oh, do you want to know something stupid and useless?" And everyone's like, "I gotta go." Ok, I'm sorry, you didn't want to yell about aliens this evening. My apologies. Alright. Good thing I already have friends.

Kris Hampton  53:39

Alright, Nate, what's our next way that people are keeping themselves motionless for seven years?

Nate Drolet  53:48

Conveniently, mine's actually coordination. 

Kris Hampton  53:52

Hmm. 

Caitlin Holmes  53:52

Wow. 

Nate Drolet  53:54

It's a word that I'm trying to use a little bit more. I just learned what it means. I'm just trying to sneak it in  now and then.

Lauren Abernathy  54:01

To me, in my head, I'm just like, "Oh, that's where you've got to slap a bunch of holds before you get to the next thing." It least that seems like the brand of coordination at this point on Instagram, at least. So please enlighten us because I think that needs to be fixed. 

Nate Drolet  54:14

Yeah, there's, you know, there's this phrase that's used now like "coordination climbing" which people typically mean dynamic, like you're moving consistently, like paddle dynos, things like that. But it's such a good word that I'm taking it back.

Lauren Abernathy  54:29

Reclaim it.

Nate Drolet  54:31

So we talked about skills, we talked about movement, the ability to move well, technique, and they're all these kind of very vague phrases. And the thing is like, our bodies are incredible. They can move in so many different ways. And there's so much to it. And especially like working with adults, this is one of my favorite things, is everyone brings in their own unique situation. So for instance, I was a distance runner before I started climbing -- and I see this in other distance runners and a lot of like soccer players -- is that when they use their legs, they don't drive through their hips very much. They're really knee-dominant, like they pull with, they grab and pull with their like calves and hamstrings essentially. Like they're all very much like lower leg, versus, I mean, you ever work with a powerlifter, like, they just hinge for everything. Everything looks like they're just standing up, the top half of a deadlift. And this is just, I mean, we're just talking about a single plane of movement, like straightforward, like and how you use your legs. But there's so much that we can do, like, every time you grab a hold, you can put any direction of force into it you want. Like you can pull it out away from the wall, you can leverage it like you're trying to snap it off the wall, you can push it up, you can pull it down, left, right, all these things. And you do that with every single limb. And there's different timings. Like we naturally want to time all our limbs together. So if I'm doing a big move, I'm going to try and pull with my right arm while driving with the left leg at the same time that I push off my right leg, it's all one motion. But the thing is, not every move asks that we use every limb at the exact same time, right? There's just so much that goes into every type of movement. And I think it's incredible. Like, it's one of the reasons why I love working with people in-person, is I get to watch this and pay attention. And, you know, I, just the other day, I was working with someone -- he's been climbing about a decade, 5.13 climber, like strong boulderer -- and he doesn't use what I call 'team hands', like he doesn't use both hands together at the same time. So if he goes to do a big pull through, he's good at generating momentum, he'll drive through his legs, but let's say if his right hand is high, and he's gonna reach to the left? He essentially loads his right arm to get into position, because that pulls him over like into a good center of balance, but he kind of hovers his low hand before he starts to go for the next move. And immediately, I was like, "Hey, start pushing off that low hand," like, "Do that for every move." And he was like, "Oh, I'm just now doing harder moves. Like every big move feels smaller." And this is one tiny thing from someone who has a massive athletic background, like this guy was a collegiate athlete, very athletic, very coordinated. But it was just one small thing. And I see this with every single person I work with. Like, I don't know anyone who doesn't have gaps, which makes sense. Like, there's so much that we can do in the way that we move, the way that we climb, that we're gonna have... like we play to our strengths, you know? If you're good at twisting, you're gonna figure out how to twist every move you can. 

Kris Hampton  57:25

Yeah, exactly. 

Nate Drolet  57:27

Like, that's just how we do things. And fortunately, climbing is super accessible to a lot of different styles. So all four of us could climb the same V6 four different ways, four different movement patterns, even if we use the same hand and foot beta. We will move our bodies, we will coordinate them differently, we'll have different amounts of attribution between every limb, how much power we're putting in, the timing of how much momentum, static, all these things. And that's really cool. But I do think that there are more successful ways to do things and a lot of us miss that. 

Kris Hampton  57:59

Yeah, I think, you know, if we look at any two athletes in different sports, they're both highly coordinated. You know, maybe it's a gymnast and a sprinter. Super athletic, super coordinated. But neither of them are going to be well-coordinated in the opposite sport. They're, they're going to look like a sprinter trying to do gymnastics, you know, and... 

Nate Drolet  58:26

Bless their hearts. 

Kris Hampton  58:28

And I think that, that should tell us that, you know, if we're telling ourselves this story, like Lauren talked about, of, 'I'm a crimp climber,' then we also don't have the coordination of a sloper climber, of a compression climber, of a friction climber, because we haven't worked on it. We haven't built it. Just like a sprinter hasn't built the same coordination as a gymnast and vice versa. You know, I, I love the -- you know, we when we started this you mentioned this is what 'coordination climbing' seems like in the zeitgeist, Lauren -- I love that shit. I think, I think pushing yourself into a coordination pattern that feels awkward to you is just building up this library of how you coordinate different limbs to do different things or, you know, different muscle activation patterns, if you want to go that deep, or whatever it is. You're learning how to move your body in new ways. And we shouldn't just be limiting ourselves to pull, reach, pull, reach.

Nate Drolet  59:38

Yeah, yeah. And you know, to go off your example of crimps versus compression, you know, one of the things that really sparked my interest in this idea was: two winters ago, so this is winter 2019, I was out in Horse Pens, and end of the day I was running some laps on boulders. I went over and I climb 'Millipede'. And it was really...

Kris Hampton  59:59

I liked how you just did that all casual. "I just went over and climbed 'Millipede'."

Nate Drolet  1:00:02

I did it really casually, yes. You weren't there but you know. I don't know, but yeah, so I went I did 'Millipede' very casually.

Lauren Abernathy  1:00:10

Business casual, I was wearing a button-up.

Nate Drolet  1:00:11

But it was really, it was really cool, because at that time it was when I was training iron crosses a lot. And 'Millipede' is known for being a hard compression boulder. There's 'Centipede', 'Bum Boy', 'Millipede', and what's funny is I got on it, and I was like, "Oh, I don't have to compress." Like all it is is just a mantle from an Iron Cross position. Like I didn't have to squeeze those holds together more than maybe 10 pounds of force, just like to add a little friction. It's a slab, you stand on your feet, and it was just a wide mantle. And it's never felt so easy. And I was like, "Wait, is that...." I was like, "Is that real?" Or is that just that I'm playing to my strengths? And what was fascinating was there was a guy there trying it and he would get into kind of the middle of the crux and he would be squeezing so physically hard. He was trying to just rip these two slopers in together, like and he like didn't have a shirt on. And you can see his chest and his whole like torso turning bright red, from trying to just squeeze this as hard as possible. He didn't move upwards, because he's trying to like squeeze. And he's putting, he puts so much more force into that rock than I ever did. But he didn't go anywhere because he was putting force in the wrong direction. Like he saw compression, he was like, "Oh, I'm gonna, I'mma squeeze this thing good." And he did just didn't go anywhere. And then we like had a conversation about it. I was like, "Hey, like, would you be open to trying this?" And, you know, he was like, "Oh, like, that's weird. That doesn't climb how I thought it should." But yeah, that's, every move we do there are good paths of pulling, of driving, of twisting, pushing, all these different things.

Kris Hampton  1:01:46

I think this is one of the reasons why all of the best climbers travel widely and climb a bunch of different styles. And, you know, they, it's not just adaptability, part of that adaptability is that they they're gaining these massive coordination libraries of how to move in different situations and they can pull on those when they need to. 

Nate Drolet  1:02:10

Yeah, you know, Matt Fultz has talked about how one of the biggest breakthroughs in his climbing was he went to South Africa and climbed around a bunch of better climbers and I think Jimmy Webb was one of the main ones that he brought up. And he was like, "I didn't know that these, I just thought these climbers were stronger than me. I just assumed they were so much stronger than I was. But then I realized that they pay so much attention to everything." Like, which arm, which leg are they pulling with? Like, which, to the centimeter? Where are their hips? Where's their chest? Are they arching their upper back? All these different things. And it blew me away and he was like, "Oh, this is, this is what I'm missing." It's not, I mean, because Matt Fultz has been strong forever, you know, and he's definitely only getting stronger and climbing harder. But it was this attention to detail that was for him, he felt, was the missing piece.

Caitlin Holmes  1:03:02

I like that more so than just calling it 'blanket technique', calling it 'coordination'. 

Kris Hampton  1:03:08

Yeah, that's a terrible word. 

Caitlin Holmes  1:03:09

Yeah. Because technique to me is so limiting, because I felt like, you know, if I go up to a compression climb that's historically a hard compression, I look at it and go, "Well, I'm not going to be able to do that the same way that someone a different size, style, climber, level, whatever." And so I think the word technique, when someone's like, "Oh, you just have to practice your compressions." That's so limiting to me because I feel like I just climb so differently. Everybody climbs differently. But having the coordination aspect and leaning into maybe the little tweaks, versus, "Oh, well, you just have to get better at XYZ," I feel like is more... there's a lot of expansion opportunities there as you're training. It feels... I feel very aligned, it resonates.

Kris Hampton  1:04:02

I feel very aligned.

Nate Drolet  1:04:04

Yeah, technique's such a vague word, but also it's loaded. We think technique, and you know, if I'm like, "Oh, Kris, you've got bad technique." Like, what, what does that mean? No one's gonna be responsive to that. I'm like, "Hey, you can really, you really love to drive on the inside of your foot. You love squeezy feet, you really compress with your legs. What if we could get you to default to using the outside edge a little more in driving rather than always compressing and drawing holds into you?" That's so much more helpful than saying, "You got some shit footwork. Your technique's not good."

Kris Hampton  1:04:37

My friend Justin and I, on the drives to the Red we used to like rank all the climbers we knew, and we had all these categories that we would rank them in on a scale of 1 to 10. And we, we got to the specific woman that we'd both climbed with for a long time, and I'm like, "Alright, what's her ranking in technique?" And Justin was like, "Oh, 9." And I'm like, "2." And he's like, "Why?" And I'm like, "Well, I understand what you're saying. Like, she looks like a ballet dancer when she climbs, yes, but that's her only trick." 

Nate Drolet  1:05:10

She has one aspect.

Kris Hampton  1:05:11

That's all she's got, you know. All, there are all these other movement patterns, there's compression, there's getting aggressive, there's being able to jump, there's all of these other things, and she has zero in all of those, you know. And I think technique, whenever we say that, we think like pretty dancing type of movement.

Lauren Abernathy  1:05:33

Or that there's like a good or bad version of it. Like to me, it feels less like there's good technique and bad technique, and more like there is limited skill sets and really broad skill set. Like, you know, to your point, I think when newer climbers are starting to figure things out, like, you'll have some things that you can do really well and it's less about stopping doing things like quote "poorly", and more about adding a skill on instead. Because yeah, I think some people are like, "Oh, I only climb, I can't climb dynamically. Like I'm only..." Like, they'll just be... I feel like there's certain types of skills or types of ways of moving that are elevated versus others in terms of the quote "right" way to do it. Versus, "Hey, wouldn't it be good if you were, if you were good at all of these things? Or if you had a skill set for all of these things so that you had options?" Especially when people talk about grip types. I don't want to get too much into hangboarding, but I have people that will just be like, "I'm only an open grip climber. Half-crimping seems useless to me." And I'm like, "Yeah, that's a wild way to operate, man. Like, wouldn't it be good if you could use a bunch of them?" And I don't know, anyways, end tangent. But I think, yeah, having more specific words. Technique, it's just like, it's a valid word but at the same time, I think I usually like to say 'skills' more, but it's so hard. 

Lauren Abernathy  1:06:55

You kind of like don't have one... and skills, also, I feel can encompass like your ability to remember a rock climb or your ability to read routes or ability... 

Kris Hampton  1:06:55

I like 'skills'.

Nate Drolet  1:07:04

Makes me think of soft skills a lot. 

Lauren Abernathy  1:07:05

Yeah, exactly. 

Nate Drolet  1:07:07

Yeah. So I think, you know, I think it's important. It's one of those things that we, yeah, I think we don't use good words for it. And I think it holds people back, you know?

Kris Hampton  1:07:20

Yeah, I agree. Caitlin, whatcha got?

Caitlin Holmes  1:07:24

This one's a bit of a, I guess broad, but it gets more specific. And I think there's a lot of overlap that y'all have probably also experienced, but that is: comparisons. I think comparisons are really holding climbers back, and from my perspective, comparing diets. So like, okay, let's give the example: Alex Megos eats a plant-based diet because he had meat sweats before. So other people...

Nate Drolet  1:07:57

I love that so much. The first time I read that, I was like, "I'm sorry. Did you really just say that you sweat too much in competition in your hands? So you stopped eating meat?"

Caitlin Holmes  1:08:06

Yeah, yeah. It's like X + 2 + 4 = meat sweats. Got it. Okay.

Lauren Abernathy  1:08:13

He's good at jumping, to holds and conclusions.

Caitlin Holmes  1:08:16

Yep. Yep. So I think people hear that -- and I like to give the analogy of telephone tag -- because somebody hears that and they automatically assume, "Oh, well, meat's bad then. Okay, we're cutting that out completely." Or somehow it gets lost in translation. And it kind of comes into not only comparing to what others are doing, but when you try it. Say, for example, so-and-so is doing a Keto diet. And so you think, "Oh, well, they're an athlete I admire or I like to listen to occasionally, and therefore I'm going to do the same thing and expect the same results." But it's really hard to just assume that, "Hey, I'm gonna get on the same bandwagon and have the same outcome." So when you feel like, "Well, it's not working for me." People don't think that way, they think, "I failed. Something is wrong with me." It's a like, "I am morally corrupt and I can't do, I can't eat this way and stick to a diet." So there's a sense of that shame. And we're also not only, you know, going into things blindly, but we're not finding things that feel good for us along the way. And also cherry picking things as it comes out. So if you search, let's say, I'll give the vegan example. You Google 'what's good about veganism', you are going to find those answers. If you search 'what's bad about veganism', you'll find those answers. And I think people see that as an absolute reason to try something. And again, when they compare to others, "Oh, well, they're so successful on it. Why do I suck? And I can't do it." It's more of a reflection on what's wrong with them versus the strategy.

Kris Hampton  1:10:09

Yeah, I see the comparison trap all the damn time in climbing. It's a rough one, for sure. And I'll expand this, you know, this point by saying it can backfire on you, if you start worrying too much about people comparing to you. Like if you're, if you're a good climber, and I've seen several people do this, hold themselves back from trying things because they're worried about how this other person's going to feel because everybody's comparing to everybody. You know, it's such a such a strange dynamic that can really hurt you, hurt your performance, hurt your mental health even, when you're constantly comparing yourself to everybody else. 

Caitlin Holmes  1:11:03

Like I don't know where we all landed, where we have to gaslight ourselves all the time? Or where we're just like, "Oh, I'm not valid. I don't have opinions that are real." It's really bizarre.

Caitlin Holmes  1:11:13

Like, worry about yourself.

Kris Hampton  1:11:13

I used to climb with a guy who, really talented and just a really good rock climber, but every single person who came to the crag -- because I'd been, you know, climbing in this area for a lot longer, and knew a lot of the people -- every single person that came to the crag, the first question was, "How hard do they climb?" And I'm like, "I've seen what happens when I tell you. If tell you that person climbs 14+, you're not going to climb around them because you're afraid of what they think of you." You know, "So I'm not, I'm not even answering your fucking questions." 

Kris Hampton  1:11:17

And it can be this, I've seen this with a lot of women, and I'm totally generalizing, but I climb with a lot of women partners so that's what I see. When they've got a project in mind, and they roll up to the crag and there's another woman climbing on their project, they get even more nervous to get on it, sometimes to the point of "I'm not getting on it at all." Whereas if it was dudes, they would get on it just fine. That, that comparison trap can really hold you back.

Caitlin Holmes  1:12:24

Absolutely. I mean, I know I've experienced that. It's like, "I don't look like A, I don't climb like B, and I'm..." I mean, I very rarely look at another guy climbing and go, "Oh, well, I'm, you know..." 

Lauren Abernathy  1:12:42

Or my body is different than his so whatever. So it's fine, but...

Kris Hampton  1:12:45

No, not at all.

Caitlin Holmes  1:12:45

Right, it's a lot easier for me to conceptualize and say like, "Well, I'm obviously a different climber than that person." But if there's a short, on the shorter side gal who has smaller hands, and they sort of climb like me, it becomes a weird comparison. Like, "Well, they can do it, why can't I?" And that's not a fair comparison at all.

Lauren Abernathy  1:12:55

Or even like, with body image struggles, as well. I've definitely climbed on projects where it seems like someone who's, you know, just like similar height to me or whatever but is clearly just like a lot smaller of a human being, and then it's like they're getting closer to sending and I'm not. And then you're comparing yourself and you're like, "Oh, it's because I'm whatever, like, this is why." And it can be really, you know, harmful. And it's not like a fun place to be in. Yeah, comparison is a big, big bummer sometimes, and just like not productive. And I understand why our brains do it, you know, we're trying to...

Kris Hampton  1:13:39

Sure.

Lauren Abernathy  1:13:39

...we're trying to make things make sense. And our brains are constantly trying to do that. But sometimes it's pretty not cool, what our brains are doing up there. So...

Caitlin Holmes  1:13:47

Yeah, it was a rare day, I guess.

Kris Hampton  1:13:47

Yeah, and I think it's worth saying that, you know, everybody gets motivated differently. And there is some healthy competition, there are times when comparing yourself to other people can be really valuable for you. But I think it's up to you to recognize whether you're in that valuable space, or this is holding you back. And if it's holding you back, it's time to think about changing that and not paying so much attention. You know, in my, in my book, 'The Hard Truth', I talked about a story of working on 'Transworld Depravity' in the Red. And at the time, I knew everybody who was climbing on the thing. And this, you know, rosy-cheeked little kid comes walking up and he's like, you know, "Do you mind if I try?" And I'm like, I just came off, so I'm gonna need a long rest anyway, "Sure, go ahead." You're gonna be up there for two hours, you know. And then he just fucking walked it, you know, onsighted it as part of his warm up. And that was Alex Megos. He obviously didn't have meat sweats that day.

Kris Hampton  1:13:49

We didn't know who Alex Megos was at the time, but I'm, I immediately was comparing myself to this kid. You know, so it's, it's just a dangerous place to be. Just wait and see, I think is the better option, you know. Learn, learn what you can. Take that away. And that's it. 

Caitlin Holmes  1:15:17

Yeah, the comparison dance is kind of brutal. I feel like I try to get, at this point when I go to different crags and I see other, other climbers on something I might want to get on too, it's, at this point, I'm like, "Well, if I'm going to use comparison in this point in time, you know, they look like they're having a fun time on it. I wonder if they could give me some pointers." So it's maybe, it's the perspective change or just realizing that, I don't know, you're still a different athlete, but yeah, I don't know. It's kind of like what you said, people comparing, even to you, that also doesn't feel great. Because you're like, "Well, no, you are a different climber. You can do things differently." 

Kris Hampton  1:16:03

Right.

Caitlin Holmes  1:16:03

So goes, it definitely goes both ways. 

Kris Hampton  1:16:06

Yeah. And there are days where I'm like, you know, if I, if I walk up to a crag, and there's somebody struggling on this thing that I've done 100 times, you know, they're, they're in the beginning of their climbing journey, they could turn out to be an Alex Megos, I have no idea. But it makes me second guess, "Do I get on my usual warm up - their project?" You know? And, but I've had enough experiences at this point to know that, yeah, I do. And it's up to them, you know. I'm not gonna put it in their face, like, " Did you see that shit?" You know.

Caitlin Holmes  1:16:41

Look at me,  I've been on it 1000 times. 

Kris Hampton  1:16:43

But I've had the experience of, actually the day I sent 'Transworld', there was an 11b I think there that I warmed up on a lot. And I would like climb it up and then back down, and then I would speed climb it really fast, you know, and just to get myself into the mindset I needed to be in. And there was somebody there that day projecting that route. And he was like, "That was really cool watching you do that." Like I just never, it opened my eyes, gave me a new perspective on what can be done on these kinds of things. And, you know if I hadn't watched Alex Megos and gotten that same perspective myself, you know, it could have been, "Oh, this, I don't want to hold this person back by doing this thing right in front of them."

Caitlin Holmes  1:17:30

Yeah, I agree. I think it's, it is tricky to navigate that. I've definitely had that experience where my warmup is something that I know someone's struggling on, it's like, "Oh, I'm just gonna let them, you know, I'll just do something else." But then in actuality, you're also dismissing the fact that you know, you've been in their shoes, you've already been there, you're at a different part than they are at this point. So it also discredits their process and the process that you've also had in the past.

Kris Hampton  1:18:03

Yeah, you don't have to be a dick about it. You can always just say, "Look, I'm gonna be struggling on this thing over here, just the same."

Lauren Abernathy  1:18:12

Like, we're all gonna be gruntin' and cussin' and it'll just be on different rocks. But one of my favorite things to do when we're kind of, when I talk about this with athletes is, you know, people are always like, "I'm so worried about, you know, what if I, like, look stupid on whatever hard thing I'm trying?" And then I always ask them, "When you see someone else trying and failing on something that seems hard for them, what are, what are you thinking about?" And then they give me this blank stare and they're like, "Oh, I'm kind of not thinking about it." That's usually the answer I get. It's either: "I didn't even think to think about it." or "Oh, it just looks like they're trying hard. And then I move on, because I'm worried about what I'm eating for lunch." And it's always funny, because it's everyone. Everyone's so worried about what other people think of them. And then when you get down to it, you're like, "Probably no one thinks anything actually." We have our own problems to deal with.

Caitlin Holmes  1:19:00

Nobody cares about you.

Lauren Abernathy  1:19:02

Yeah, like in the best way, nobody cares. So go chuff. It's fine.

Nate Drolet  1:19:06

And if someone does tell you that they care, you're like, "You're going to therapy."

Lauren Abernathy  1:19:11

You need to calm down. You're fine. Yeah. So or if they give you unsolicited comments, you can be like, that's their problem to deal with.

Caitlin Holmes  1:19:20

I'm not the problem. Not my circus, not my monkeys.

Lauren Abernathy  1:19:23

Yeah, precisely. Yeah, people are fascinating, but that always, whenever I'm also getting in that zone, I'm like, "Do you think anyone actually cares what you're doing?" It's like, "Oh, probably not. I'll just keep rock climbing, I guess." So, yeah. Yeah.

Nate Drolet  1:19:35

It's funny. Some years ago, I was climbing in Hueco Tanks and, climbing with a buddy, and we're over by "Mexican Chicken", classic V6 roof, kind of bouldery, kind of tough. We're maybe, I don't know, 100 feet, 50 feet away, we're just like hanging out, I think maybe eating lunch or something. And we see this guy walk around the corner from "Barefoot on Sacred Ground". And he's like carrying a crash pad sort of half-draped over his back in an awkward way. He's wearing Evolve Defy's, so like flat shoes. He's got tie-dye pajama pants and like a torn-up shirt. And he's just kind of like gangly, bopping his way over and looks up at "Mexican Chicken", drops his pad just randomly, and is like sort of staring at the holds -- so you can clearly tell he hasn't been on it before. And I'm like, "Oh, God, do I need to sprint over and spot this guy here in a second? We'll see." He goes to pull on, goes to pull on and immediately puts a back heel for the first move. And I was like, "Oh," I was like, "I'm either about to see someone crack their skull open. Or I'm about to have an exhibition in front of me."

Kris Hampton  1:20:39

The most in-elegant technique, there is.

Nate Drolet  1:20:41

This man floated this boulder.

Caitlin Holmes  1:20:44

Oh wow. 

Nate Drolet  1:20:44

Just incredible. His first day ever in Hueco, had just landed, I think from Australia. Had gone on, he'd do like six, like six V10's that day, but it was funny: He just floats this thing masterfully, and the guy next to me, my buddy, was like, "You know what? I try not to compare myself to other people very often or judge, because you know what? That's what happens when I do. I saw him and I was just like, 'Wow, you know, he's got quite the get up. And kind of dragging his pad across rocks. And, you know, we'll see how this goes.' And he just climbed that 1,000 times better than I ever will.'" 

Caitlin Holmes  1:21:04

Wow. 

Kris Hampton  1:21:15

Yeah, totally. 

Nate Drolet  1:21:16

Yeah. So it was pretty great. It was still very funny.

Kris Hampton  1:21:19

Yeah, that is a real thing. Yeah. Lauren, whatcha got?

Lauren Abernathy  1:21:23

Alright. So this one, this one might get under someone's skin, but it's good for you. If it does, it's probably you that needs to hear it. So: you don't actually know how to try hard. And I think this one I've, it's funny, I had an athlete recently, she told me she was like, "This is my limit boulder." And I'm looking at it. And I'm like, "You're gonna send this in two sessions. You could have sent that right now." But it's one of the hardest thing she's ever tried on the Kilter Board, right? So I'm looking at it. And I'm like, "You're very close." And she's like, "I just really can't reach that hold." And I'm watching it. And I'm like, "You're not, you are not completely trying hard." And it's, it's hard, because I think teaching someone to learn what 110% effort on a hard sequence is, is a definitely, like, it's a difficult thing to do as a coach. And there's definitely, you know, different drills and different ways to say, shape a session to make it happen. But I really think this is something that holds people back. And I think to me, one of the best ways to figure out if you're actually trying really hard is to watch a video of yourself. Because there's been so many times where I'm like, "I am wailing on this thing. It's just really difficult. Like, it'll take me forever to be able to hit this next hold. Like this is just what it is. This will just have to be a gigantic process." And then I'll take a video, watch it. And I'm like, "You looked like you were trying 2 out of 10 on that." Like, it might feel awkward, this is the thing, it might feel awkward or like, you can't explode out of something -- I'm also working on more scrunching at the moment -- so it's things like that where I watch it. I'm like, "But you didn't really try." So I think that's probably my biggest tip. If you don't actually know if you're trying hard, like watch a video and see if you actuaally are. Kris, do you have any...? Yeah. Tell me your thoughts on this. 

Kris Hampton  1:23:11

I think I mean, I think what you just said is sort of combining almost everything that's been said already, because you can't get to 100% physical effort until you're you've dealt with: the story you tell yourself, the coordination that you have, have you fueled properly -- all of these things need to be in place before you can even actually give 100% physical effort. So when you're setting up for this scrunchy move, you're like, "Oh my God, this looks stupid. Somebody out there is watching me, I look incredibly awkward." You know, you don't quite understand the coordination, whatever, there's all these things tied into that. And it may feel like you gave it all, but when you objectively look at it, it's 2 out of 10.

Lauren Abernathy  1:24:03

Right, exactly. And I think you know, that's a good, that's a good thing to bring up, too, is like if you're comparing yourself or you feel like you look silly, or if you're really afraid in whatever situation you're in... 

Kris Hampton  1:24:13

Yeah, exactly. 

Lauren Abernathy  1:24:13

...Of course, it's going to be limiting your ability to give it your all. Because honestly at this point, where I'm at in my climbing, like usually I make really upsetting noises when I'm trying really hard. And like I used to care and now I'm just at the top of the climbing gym in The Front and I'm like, "Rawr!" Or probably better than that, but...

Kris Hampton  1:24:32

Is that the noise you make when you're climbing?

Lauren Abernathy  1:24:33

No, I wish. 

Kris Hampton  1:24:35

Rawr! I'm a dinosaur. 

Lauren Abernathy  1:24:38

That'd be fun. Maybe someday if there's a jug, maybe I'll start going like that.

Kris Hampton  1:24:43

I expect dinosaur noises when we go bouldering Wednesday morning. 

Lauren Abernathy  1:24:46

Yeah, exactly. So I'll I'll bring it out. But I think like if I was embarrassed about needing to try that hard or like whatever it may be, that I would not be able to give it my full effort. Or I make, you know on the kettlebell, like "Tsss!"? They always teach you like, "Breathe out: Tsss!" There was, there was a period after I'd been using kettlebells a lot where everything was "Tsss! Tsss!" in my climbing, all the time. And I was like, whatever. This is what, this is what tension looks like right now. And I'm going "Tsss!" So engage your core everyone. But...

Kris Hampton  1:25:13

Yeah, I like to like talk about like try hard in terms of two different types of effort. So intensive effort and extensive effort. And I often see that people who are good at one are not good at the other. 

Lauren Abernathy  1:25:17

Interesting. 

Kris Hampton  1:25:19

You know, so if you're listening, and you're that person who is really good at giving 100% to a move, are you good at continuing to just lunge and latch holds when you're pumped, when you're tired, when you're fatigued? Have you ever been in that situation where you thought you were going to fall for 20 moves in a row, but you didn't, you know those? So I need both ends of that spectrum to be paid attention to as well. And I think a lot of people, there are very few people who can do both, and both simultaneously. 

Lauren Abernathy  1:26:02

Yeah, or like, you might get really good at one because in your training cycle, or however, whatever climbing style you're engaging in, you're like, oh, excellent at giving like really hard effort for a limited amount of time, but you lose your ability to focus for a long time. And I also think focus goes into that because being able to try hard means that your mental space, there's no energy leaking anywhere else. But if your energy is leaking to fear, comparing yourself to others, general life stress, like all these things, like you're not going to be able to, you know, give it that maximum focus and effort -- for a short amount of time or a long amount of time.

Kris Hampton  1:26:34

Yeah, I think I'm a good example, of like I used to be really good at extensive effort, terrible at intensive effort. And now that's flipped, like, I'm much better at giving intensive effort. But when I've tried to do some endurance workouts recently, I'm like, "Fuck this. This hurts. I'm bored out of my mind. I don't want to keep going. And I don't have to." 

Lauren Abernathy  1:26:59

I love power endurance workouts. It's so weird. I think about the days where I'm like, "I can't wait till it's the power endurance part of this cycle." And now I'm like, "Oh, God, I'm gonna puke. Not Boulders on the Minute again, Blake! This is gonna kill me." Yeah, I don't know. Maybe I'll get that back someday. But yeah, endurance workouts, if you're doing them right, they kind of suck.

Nate Drolet  1:26:59

Yeah, I'm an adult!

Kris Hampton  1:27:19

I think that's a really good one. Trying hard is hard.

Caitlin Holmes  1:27:22

Yeah. 

Nate Drolet  1:27:22

It is. And it helps, I think, being around other people who do try hard. 

Kris Hampton  1:27:27

Totally.

Nate Drolet  1:27:27

Both sides. I mean climbing at the Red, like, once again, you go and you see someone who's just gutting it out for the last 10 moves of a route, they get up to the anchors, they're too pumped to clip, maybe they have the bolt below them skipped, and they just sit and shake for the next five minutes to get enough to get one quick draw clipped. And you're like, "Oh, yeah, I don't, I don't do that." 

Lauren Abernathy  1:27:47

I'm like, "I'm pumped, take!"

Nate Drolet  1:27:49

Exactly. So often people will, you know, they start getting pumped, and they just slow down, and they stop. And they'll like, you know, they'll let go or maybe they like slap the next hold, if they're really trying to be practiced about it. But you know, they're like, "I mean, I couldn't have kept going if I wanted to." It's like, "Well, you don't know that." Like you only know if you try, like, actually try and go for it. 

Lauren Abernathy  1:28:09

It's really fun to watch someone when you're like, "It's been straight up two minutes and I've thought you were going to eat shit this whole time. And you're still going and now you're at the anchor." Like, it's a blast. It's good to get in that zone. It's also mentally difficult to be able to like be in that zone all the time.

Kris Hampton  1:28:23

Yeah, I think it's just as mentally exhausting giving intensive effort, as well. You really have to get yourself into a space that's, you know, that you can't physically keep up for more than, you know, 8 to 12 seconds or something. 

Nate Drolet  1:28:23

It's exhausting.

Lauren Abernathy  1:28:23

So even if, like even if you have days where you're like, "Yep, today is the day where, that my try hard is less available than normal." Like don't beat yourself up about it. It's not bad to not, I don't think it's reasonable to think you're able to give 150% all the time, like you're a human being. But learning how to do it more often is obviously going to behoove you greatly as a climber.

Nate Drolet  1:29:00

Eyes closed. Everything flexed. 

Kris Hampton  1:29:01

Yeah. It's a fucking hard place to get to and to be.

Nate Drolet  1:29:05

Yeah, I mean, I think a good limit bouldering session like, oftentimes, I'll have to end it because I'm just mentally drained, like, I can't summon up that much effort anymore. Like, it'd be, you know, when people are like, "Oh, yeah, I'll go do two hours of limit bouldering." It's like "Well, that's, that ain't it." There's no such thing as two hours of limit bouldering. You know, maybe if you're taking like 10 minute breaks between go's, eating snacks, and somehow staying warm. I don't know. But that sounds awful. 

Kris Hampton  1:29:30

Yeah, like, like once you pass the like 40 minute mark, you're probably going downhill. 

Nate Drolet  1:29:36

Yeah. Yeah, it takes so much energy and concentration to really summon that type of effort. And to do it well, to where it's not just like you know, you're just trying to explode at the wall, you're still trying to move well, you're still trying to, you know, be coordinated, be focused, but not be, not try so hard that you're like blasting yourself off the wall. And man, one other thing I'll say about trying hard, and you had mentioned this earlier, Lauren, is that there are few things that get me more excited than watching other people try hard. 

Kris Hampton  1:30:07

Fuck yeah, man. 

Nate Drolet  1:30:08

I don't, I don't give a shit what you're climbing on, you can be on V3. If you are like, neck snapping back on every move trying hard, I am here cheering for you. If you want cheering. Yeah, I'm just like, nothing gets me more amped then seeing people get after it, regardless of the grade.

Kris Hampton  1:30:24

Yeah, I mean, whenever I hear somebody talk about trying hard, and as soon as you said "neck snapping back," I don't think of Janja, I think of Dalia. Just these, these people who give the maximum effort to everything that they do. You know, she's terrible at remembering beta, but she gives her all to her wrong beta.

Nate Drolet  1:30:24

Oh my goodness, yeah.

Kris Hampton  1:30:25

You know, I, that gets me so psyched watching someone like that climb.

Nate Drolet  1:30:30

She snaps a banana every time.

Kris Hampton  1:30:36

Every time.

Nate Drolet  1:30:37

Whole case of bananas.

Kris Hampton  1:30:39

And let's me know that I've got a long way to go. Like I can, I could stand there and be like -- and I have -- stand there and be like, "Wow, you're terrible at remembering beta. I'm way better at this than you." But in reality I have to go, "Wow, I don't, I don't know if I've ever tried as hard at anything as you just did at your wrong beta."

Nate Drolet  1:31:20

At that double drop-knee drive-by move you just did. I didn't know two knees could point in the same direction at each other like that. And man, your eyes were closed and you were getting after it.

Kris Hampton  1:31:31

In, in Hueco once, one of the first times I ever climbed with Dalia, she was trying this boulder. And I'm like, "Dalia, you're, you're trying something different every single time. Let's, let's talk through this." You know, "I'm like, here's what you did. Here's what you did." And she's like, "Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm going to do! Yeah!" And then she jumped on and didn't touch any of the holds.

Lauren Abernathy  1:31:55

I wish I was strong enough to double down on wrong beta like that.  That sounds awesome.

Kris Hampton  1:31:57

Gave all the effort.

Caitlin Holmes  1:31:57

Yeah.

Nate Drolet  1:31:59

She's got like built-in ammonia capsules, like what lifters use to rev themselves up.

Caitlin Holmes  1:32:02

Oh my god.

Nate Drolet  1:32:03

There's just something, she just flips a switch. And she's like, "Alright."

Lauren Abernathy  1:32:05

"It's on."

Caitlin Holmes  1:32:05

"I'm ready."

Nate Drolet  1:32:06

Bull sees red.

Kris Hampton  1:32:07

Amazing. I fucking love it. We love you, Dalia.

Nate Drolet  1:32:11

Very much.

Kris Hampton  1:32:12

Alright, last for me is, you know: history and romanticizing the climbs -- romanticizing boulders, romanticizing routes. It's, it's our fault as climbers but -- so I'm not blaming guide book authors, or people writing the stories -- but the more colorful the language about a route or boulder, the more intimidated we get by it very often. And I'll see, I hear from clients all the time, who I'm like, "Oh, you know what you should try? You know, after you finish up this project, go do this thing." And then they'll be like, "Well, I read on redriverclimbing.com that this bolt was really hard to clip and it's scary." And I'm like, "Who... Have you tried it? How do you know it's scary?" Have you ever been less scared than another person? Yes, you have. You ever been more scared than another person? Yes, you have. Then you can't take exactly what all these people say. Just because someone wrote that "it's scary," or that it's, you know, "so hard right here, it's almost impossible," doesn't mean that holds true for you. But we tend to romanticize this shit. And I see so many people not try things because of that, that it drives me out of my fucking mind.

Nate Drolet  1:33:41

Yeah, yeah, I think that's a really big one. You know, I've climbed in Rifle a decent bit. And I think that place has this happen more than almost anywhere I've ever been. Like, "Oh, don't get on 12d's. They're, you know..." "These are all the super hard 12d's that are essentially 13a." All these things, like everything just has this lore about it, like every rock climb. And it makes sense, everyone projects things for a long time, so... And there's no cell phone service so you have to talk to people, so you've got to find something to talk about, so you talk about how hard your project is. But it, man, it's funny. The very first time I went there, I didn't really know anyone in the canyon and I had just had a finger injury. I was like, "I'm just gonna go do a bunch of 5.12's. This will be a lot of fun." And it's funny because I went through, I think I maybe did like, I don't know, 35 or something on this little trip. And I started talking with people and they're like, "Oh, oh, you did that 12, that 12b is as hard as any 12d." And I was like, "Well, I'm glad you didn't tell me this. I wouldn't have like, probably tried it." Like on half the things like everyone's like, "Oh, I mean, you know, this is so hard. And this is so hard," and all this. And it's like, "Well, I think you're, you're making it out to be hard and you've built this up in your head." 

Kris Hampton  1:34:49

Exactly. 

Nate Drolet  1:34:50

And yeah, it's crazy. Like you can't talk about a single route there without someone just talking about some story of why, you know, they built, put these expectations on it. 

Caitlin Holmes  1:34:59

That's how I feel about classics.

Lauren Abernathy  1:35:01

Caitlin is a route and boulder hipster. 

Nate Drolet  1:35:07

We might share this, actually.

Caitlin Holmes  1:35:08

Yeah, so I started my climbing career, so to speak, in Hueco Tanks and all the classics, everybody's like, "Oh, you have to get on it. It's benchmark V5. So good." And it pissed me off. Because even though I felt like I should feel comfortable on a grade -- I know it's subjective, that's a whole other thing, but...

Kris Hampton  1:35:32

You should at least feel comfortable trying a thing.

Caitlin Holmes  1:35:34

Right, but when a classic felt not awesome and it wasn't as great as everybody had hyped it up to be, I started to feel this like inward sense of failure where I was like, "Well, then if I can't do a classic that's benchmark, you know, what am I doing?" And, and I always like the climb, the, you know, "climb next door" that's like pretty good but never talked about. And everybody's like, "Oh, that's just a junk show. It's a choss pile." And I'm like, "Well, I, I thought it was excellent. Because I had a lot of fun on it. And it worked better for me, so..."

Kris Hampton  1:35:44

It's totally okay to be wrong, Caitlin. 

Caitlin Holmes  1:36:10

Yeah, hahaha. Wrong about classics.

Nate Drolet  1:36:13

No, I share this exact same feeling. Big fan of "one star Wednesday's, zero star Sundays". Like, there are so many amazing climbs that people overlook because they're, they believe the story. They're like, "Oh, I need to go do this." And this is another thing I have with clients, too. I'm sure you all experience it, in the sense that they'll be like, "Well, I want to go do this one rock climb, because it's the rock climb you do for this grade." I mean, "Well, there's these four others, I think you'll actually enjoy them more, they're gonna have a smaller crowd, you're not going to have a huge line. Also, they're gonna fit you better. Frankly, I think they're more fun. They're not as polished," all these things. They're like, "But this is the one." I'm like, "Yeah, but maybe just don't listen to that." 

Kris Hampton  1:36:50

Yeah. It's so fascinating to me. You know, it goes right back to the comparison idea of, you know, I had a, I had a client, for instance, years ago, who was an excellent face climber, like, just amazing at moving her body around vertical terrain. And there was a vertical route in the Red that lots of dudes had tried and been like, "I don't even know if there's holds left on this thing. It's impossible. So scary. You can't clip this bolt." And, and I went and did it, and was like, "Oh, I don't think it's that bad. You should get on this thing." And she went up it, did all the moves very quickly. And I was like, "Oh, you're, you're in position. You're gonna do it next try." But she's still telling herself the stories. "Oh, it's so hard. That bolt was really scary to clip." And I'm like, "I just watched you clip that bolt super casually. You're fine." But the stories are so powerful. 

Caitlin Holmes  1:36:50

Yeah. 

Nate Drolet  1:37:53

Yeah.

Lauren Abernathy  1:37:54

I kinda try to tell people like, "Maybe don't look on Mountain Project. Like, if you know you're gonna get in your head about something." And it's also like, is it stiff, or did one person, 10 years ago, post that they thought it was stiff? And then that person read that comment, went on the climb anticipating stiffness, and it just propagates from there. Or like, similarly, I just got on a climb in Salt Lake City where everyone's like, "Oh, my God, the fourth bolt is impossible to clip. Like, you're gonna have the worst time." And I went up there and I was like, "Um, well, maybe you're tall and the feet don't fit your box super well, but I got two perfect feet that I can stand on. And if I extend it one, it's actually pretty chill." So, I don't know, yeah. Take things with a grain of salt, I guess, and actually examine that, you know, what someone else might feel... one thing! This is my Mountain Project rant: I really wish people would say, "You can have whatever opinion you want but," say, "to me, it felt like this." Or "To me, I had this experience," because people will just act like they're God and be like, "This is very soft for 12d." And then I'll just be like, "Oh, I'm so glad you get to unilaterally decide that. It's so fascinating." I'm like, you could say "To me, it felt on, it felt like this to me." And I think it's fine to have your opinion. I think consensus is the only way we're going to have these things. But acting like your opinion is the only one that matters is very problematic. So maybe don't do that.

Kris Hampton  1:39:17

Yeah and those, those grades get, they become part of the lore. 

Lauren Abernathy  1:39:22

Oh, yeah.

Kris Hampton  1:39:23

This sandbagged thing, this, this 12b that's actually 12d, you know, and...

Lauren Abernathy  1:39:29

Or, or the soft, right, people? I've talked to athletes that are like, Well, I'm really excited about this rock climb and based on it, I think it could be a really cool first 5.12 or whatever, but everyone says it's soft, so I don't want to get made fun of. If that's my first one." And I was like, "That's so sad."

Kris Hampton  1:39:44

You know how all those... all those people who called it soft climbed it, you know? They've all climbed it, too. It's not a, it's not a negative thing to have climbed it. And it might feel soft to that person, too. Who knows, you know? And who fucking cares, frankly?

Lauren Abernathy  1:39:54

If it felt hard for you and you were challenged by it and you're proud of it, in the end, like, fuck 'em.

Kris Hampton  1:40:07

Exactly. 

Lauren Abernathy  1:40:08

I'll give you a high five.

Kris Hampton  1:40:09

Exactly.

Nate Drolet  1:40:10

Just go do all the rock climbs. 

Lauren Abernathy  1:40:12

If it looks fun, and you're psyched, and also, okay, so what? Maybe it is, maybe it does feel easy for you and then you get on another one that feels harder. But like, fuck! Build the confidence on the one that's a little quote, "soft" or whatever and then you'll, you know, feel more like you can own the grade and move on from there. I don't know, I think that's fine.

Nate Drolet  1:40:29

Yeah, you know, it's funny, my first 12b onsight was "Supafly" in the Red. It's now considered... 

Kris Hampton  1:40:35

It was one of my first, I don't know if it was my first, but...

Nate Drolet  1:40:38

It's now considered just normal 12a. But the thing is, for me, I was like, "Oh, I onsighted 12b." And within like the next month, I had onsighted like four more, like the full, the full range of the grade, because I was like, "Yeah, I can, I onsight 12b now." That's all I needed. And it's funny now looking back, that like, that wasn't even the one, but who cares?

Kris Hampton  1:40:57

Yeah, like when I came down, when I came down from my "Supafly" onsight, there was a guy there who was like, "Well, it was harder when we did it because we were avoiding standing in this hueco." And I was like... 

Caitlin Holmes  1:41:11

That's your problem.

Kris Hampton  1:41:12

"Well, that was stupid."

Nate Drolet  1:41:13

Yeah. 

Lauren Abernathy  1:41:13

Oh, I, oh, I hate a standing rest in the middle of my pumpy rock climb. Said no one ever.

Nate Drolet  1:41:18

You meann the hueco big enough to put a couch inside. That is in the bolt line. 

Kris Hampton  1:41:23

Exactly. 

Lauren Abernathy  1:41:24

I'm sorry, you don't want to take your shoes off and put them back on in the middle of the rock climb? Which I did on "Banshee", I believe. It felt great. I was like, "I can do anything in here. I can have a tea party."

Kris Hampton  1:41:32

I've stashed water bottles in huecos on sport climbs.

Lauren Abernathy  1:41:35

Yeah, yeah. That's the point of sport climbing. You can do that. Why would you not? 

Caitlin Holmes  1:41:39

I feel the same way about like kneepads, and... 

Lauren Abernathy  1:41:43

Oh, my god.

Caitlin Holmes  1:41:45

...like having them called the "down grader". I'm like, "Really?" I mean, it's just, you know, kind of full circle. We're getting to a point where we're getting smarter and more informed about climbing and what's possible. Sure, you know, maybe it makes some things less "classically" climbed, but I don't think that anybody who utilizes those tools should be, you know, made, made to feel like they didn't do it. Yeah. It's like, "Oh, well, that's not 'classically' how it's done."

Lauren Abernathy  1:42:16

Well, I'm bad at sewing. And I don't want to have to sew up my pants' knees all the time. So I'm using a kneebar pad.

Caitlin Holmes  1:42:22

I also like my knees. 

Lauren Abernathy  1:42:23

And also I like these pants.

Kris Hampton  1:42:25

And maybe it does change the grade of it. But all that means is that all of you who did it before me did it wrong. You did it the hard way. Sorry. Get better. 

Nate Drolet  1:42:37

It's so often that people be like, "Well, the first ascentionist did it this way." And it's like, "Yeah. Okay." Like, I mean, that's cool. Like, they just didn't see things. Like, yeah, you know, it'd be like, "Oh, they didn't, the first ascentionist didn't use this heel hook in the middle of the boulder." It's like, it's in the middle of the boulder. Like, um, did they not have heels? I don't know, like that's, that's their prerogative.

Kris Hampton  1:42:59

How did they find climbing shoes?

Nate Drolet  1:43:00

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, it's just one of those things like, I don't know. It, I think it's silly.

Kris Hampton  1:43:07

Yeah, we could go off... Average, Average Climber Board Meeting part two will be ranting about all of the ridiculousness of....

Caitlin Holmes  1:43:17

I could rant for days.

Lauren Abernathy  1:43:18

Wait, I have this one thing I really want to do where we get a bunch of helium and then we inhale helium and read stupid Mountain Project comments in a goofy voice because that's the voice they deserve to be read in. 

Kris Hampton  1:43:28

Do you need helium?

Caitlin Holmes  1:43:30

Yes, absolutely. 

Lauren Abernathy  1:43:31

Because it's, because it's fun. And I also like the idea of putting helium on my business expense sheet and having to talk to the IRS about why I bought it if I ever have to talk to them.

Caitlin Holmes  1:43:41

There're some comments people have made about, I'll give this example because I think it's the most ridiculous: I've suggested that gummy bears are an excellent pre-climbing and during-climbing snack.

Nate Drolet  1:43:53

Well, go on.

Kris Hampton  1:43:54

Yes, they are. This is undebatable. 

Caitlin Holmes  1:43:57

I feel the same way. But people are very passionate against gummy bear consumption. Like very passionate about it. And having helium to back it up about how ridiculous they sound saying, "Well, gummy bears are, they're not good and they are bad." I think it just adds this element of...

Kris Hampton  1:44:16

Who hates gummy bears?

Lauren Abernathy  1:44:17

Anti, I call them the anti-gummy extremists. Y'all need therapy. Figure it out.

Caitlin Holmes  1:44:25

Yeah, it's like all of these you know, points about, "Well, what about added sugar and colors and whatever is in gummy bears?"

Nate Drolet  1:44:34

Red dye number 48. 

Caitlin Holmes  1:44:35

Exactly. Yeah, yeah. It's like these really extreme thoughts that, about diet culture that have merged into this snack that I'm like, "Yeah, but I'm not saying eat a bowl of them for breakfast. I'm saying eat them as a tool, as an asset." It's just people are very extreme so helium to sort of put a nail, a pin in that, I think is very necessary.

Kris Hampton  1:45:00

I'm in, then. 

Lauren Abernathy  1:45:01

Yes! 

Kris Hampton  1:45:01

Next one, we're doing with helium. To wrap this up, I need to know which gummy bear do you choose? Because a lot of gummy bear fans are very fucking aggro about which gummy bear is the best.

Nate Drolet  1:45:18

People have strong gummy bear opinions.

Kris Hampton  1:45:20

Oh, I, I posted that I was doing a gummy bear taste test on road trip once, and people were furious at my thoughts. 

Caitlin Holmes  1:45:29

Yeah, I'm a big Haribo girl with sugar. I also like the Mountain one? Green Mountain? I don't know.

Kris Hampton  1:45:37

Uh huh. I'm with you here. 

Caitlin Holmes  1:45:39

I'm not necessarily a connoisseur. I just, I really like them. Big fan of of many, many of the options out there.

Kris Hampton  1:45:47

Me, too. Me, too. Nate?

Nate Drolet  1:45:48

I prefer just sour candy, sour gummies, so I do a lot of Twin Snakes.

Kris Hampton  1:45:53

Okay.

Nate Drolet  1:45:54

I've got the...

Kris Hampton  1:45:54

I do like the sour stuff. 

Nate Drolet  1:45:56

I got the Sour Patch Kids Watermelon? 

Lauren Abernathy  1:45:58

Yessss.

Caitlin Holmes  1:45:58

Those are the number one.

Nate Drolet  1:45:58

I gave those to my clinic, my Route-Reading clinic. 

Kris Hampton  1:46:00

That's too good, because I will eat a family-size bag.

Lauren Abernathy  1:46:04

Like why don't my taste buds work anymore? I've singed them off.

Caitlin Holmes  1:46:09

My mouth is raw from the last two hours.

Kris Hampton  1:46:12

Do you have a gummy bear opinion?

Lauren Abernathy  1:46:14

Um, I can't remember is it Hari-bo or Ha-ribo? I say it wrong every time and Mike's like, "You say it differently than that," but I like the ones...

Kris Hampton  1:46:21

Whichever it is.

Lauren Abernathy  1:46:22

...whichever it is, like the ones that are covered in sour. But also there's this sour candy called Rips that I really like.

Kris Hampton  1:46:28

I remember we were just talking about this.

Lauren Abernathy  1:46:28

I also like it because I like saying "Ri'" a lot. Like, "That rips!" So I feel like I identify with the brand. But I'm big on Rips. They also are sour and can kind of sorta light your tongue on fire. But I will at least eat them when I'm outside. So it's good.

Kris Hampton  1:46:39

Alright. I am also a Haribo fan so that's that's the final word on gummy bears.

Caitlin Holmes  1:46:51

So it's done.

Kris Hampton  1:46:53

Albanese? Nope. Not happening. Sorry about your luck, folks.

Nate Drolet  1:46:57

Hate mail.

Lauren Abernathy  1:46:59

Go get yourself a Costco size bag of Haribos and... 

Caitlin Holmes  1:47:04

Hari-bos. 

Lauren Abernathy  1:47:04

I'll look it up. 

Kris Hampton  1:47:05

Whatever it is.

Lauren Abernathy  1:47:05

Whatever. Whatever. 

Kris Hampton  1:47:08

Yeah, and put them in the refrigerator because they're delicious that way.

Caitlin Holmes  1:47:12

They are. 

Kris Hampton  1:47:13

Alright, you can find Average Climber Podcast everywhere you get your podcast, but where can folks find you, Lauren? 

Lauren Abernathy  1:47:20

They can find me at goodsprayclimbing.com . On Instagram, @goodspraycoaching. And that's, that's a good place to start.

Kris Hampton  1:47:29

Awesome. Caitlin?

Caitlin Holmes  1:47:31

I would say primarily find me on Instagram, @dirtbagnutritionist and my website is caitlinholmes.com and also dirtbagnutrition.com.

Kris Hampton  1:47:41

And we'll have links to all of those in the show notes here. Nate, where are you on Instagram?

Nate Drolet  1:47:47

@natedrolet and then I'm also, if you want to work with me in-person, I coach in Salt Lake at the Momentum gyms. And you don't need to be a member to take part in that.

Kris Hampton  1:47:53

Awesome. Yeah, I didn't know that part of it. That's cool. You can find Nate and I both at powercompanyclimbing.com. And you can find me at @powercompanyclimbing on the Instagrams, the Facebook's, the Pinterest. I don't, we're not on Tik Tok, are we, Lana?

Lana Stigura  1:48:17

No. Fuck, no.

Kris Hampton  1:48:20

Does any, does anybody here have a Twitter that's active?

Lauren Abernathy  1:48:25

Absolutely not.

Caitlin Holmes  1:48:27

One social option at a time for me.

Kris Hampton  1:48:30

Okay same, same for me.

Nate Drolet  1:48:32

I don't think so. Crux Padwell might be active, can't control him.

Kris Hampton  1:48:38

Might be active. There's there's some random person posting on the Crux Padwell account about Albanese gummy bears. 

Nate Drolet  1:48:45

I was about to say, "About Albanese gummy bears."

Kris Hampton  1:48:49

But you, however, will not find Power Company Climbing on Twitter because we don't tweet, we scream like eagles.